A Few Technical Issues - Cam Belt Snapped

[ZXCharlieR]

Hey everyone, I am new here so please be gentle,  :) !!

 

I have mentioned this in chris666's post about his electrics and it may just be related to his topic but just in case, I thought I'd post my own to not step on anyone's feet.

 

I have the following symptoms:

Display (SatNav version) comes on and stays on for about 30 seconds, even when you use it but then shuts down quickly

Engine management light is on

None of the fob's buttons work

None of the sunroofs open

Car locks, opens and turns over with the key but nothing more, won't start

No fans or climate control

The sliding door close buttons on the pillars don't work

None of the electric windows work

 

Forgot to mention that the key fobs seem dead as a dodo, no power what so ever! but I can't confirm that without the car locking from the fob, sort of a catch 22!

 

Any feedback would also be really appreciated and if you get it fixed please let me know what your solution was.

Thanks in advance

 

[Johndouglas]

Have you tried a BSI reset? If not - try it. It's done by disconnecting the battery for a few minutes. But disconnect in the correct manner.
Follow this method:-
Open the bonnet and prop it open.
Open the driver's window.
Switch off the ignition and remove the ignition key from the car.
Wait 3 minutes before touching the battery to give the various electronics time to shutdown and save settings.
Remove the cover over the battery - if there is one..
Remove the bolt holding the battery clip
Remove the battery negative terminal.
Remove the battery positive terminal.
Remove the battery from the car.
When reconnecting ignition key out of the car

Reconnect the battery and wait a few minutes. Don't open doors.
Through the open window insert the key in the ignition and wait a minute
Turn the key to the first position and wait a minute
Turn the key so the dash lights come on and wait a minute before starting the engine
Take the windows down and up to reset the anti pinch
Reset the clock

 

PS I've deleted your other post.

[ZXCharlieR]

Hi mate,

Thanks for that, sounded somewhwere along those lines as I have been studying other people's scenarios.

I will try this tomorrow and let you know if  it cured the situation.

Deleted? Did I do something wrong?

[Johndouglas]

Deleted? Did I do something wrong?

No, not at all. If the question is there only once, it keeps the replies all in the same location.

[ZXCharlieR]

Hi John and thanks for that! Didn't work but was well worth a try. I almost catches but I can't open the window to access the car in that way so I have had to sit in it.

 

Is there any other way of doing this as I am not sure if I am causing it to confuse itself through the alarm sensors or something relative?

 

Would it be possible to do this with a scanner resetting something or is there any other way apart from taking it to the main stealer?

 

Thanks again

[ZXCharlieR]

Forgot to mention, when I try to start he she the hazard lights come on. Immo maybe?

[ZXCharlieR]

Hi again,

I managed to read the error codes via OBDII

 

P0020

P0025

P0026

 

I am about to hunt the internet but any insight or previous experiences with these codes and solutions?

Thanks again!

[paul.h]

I could not find anywhere details of your car - year, engine, petrol/diesel, model - these may be of relevance, also how long you have had the car, any history of servicing and previous problems. Have you measured the battery voltage, should be around 12.5 to 12.7 volts without the engine running ?

 

Some of the things in your list may not be working since the car may be in eco mode and the engine needs to run to reset this. In the handbook there will probably be a list of things that are stopped by eco mode to prevent the battery becoming flat.

 

The remote fob may not be working to lock/unlock the doors if its battery needs replacing or if that has been done, it may need initialising and this will be in the handbook. The receiver for the key fob may be part of the switch unit below the steering wheel.

 

Having read the fault codes, have you erased them to see if the car will start ? Also before erasing them have you looked at the freeze frame data to see if this tells you anything about the car when the codes came up ? To erase the codes, fit the reader to the 16 pin socket, put the ignition key in and turn so the dash lights up but engine not running, erase codes, then again read the codes to ensure they have gone, can then try to start the engine. Turn off the engine and remove the key before removing the code reader.

[ZXCharlieR]

Very good point, sorry all.

Citroen C8 2.2 HDI Executive CC 2003 with 64,000 miles

No service history just all old MOT's to backup the mileage

Battery voltage was oscillating between 11.6 and 11.7 so a bit low, I have put it on charge overnight and it is brand new.

 

Plugged in and looked, it came up with those errors, reset, still won't start

As for the freeze frame, not looked at as the software I have is, well, basic!

 

 

I am thinking it's the BSI unit as after trying several times the central overhead door controls started to work and in fact still are.

The controls for the windows, sunroof, doors (on the pillars), Climate control, etc are still non working, maybe as you have said, in ECO mode so all functions like these are disabled until the engine starts.

I was thinking of replacing the whole lot (ECU, BSI, Keys and FOBs, etc) but I have a fear that there will be a missing option because it won't be from the same model, but that's something to look at if all else fails.

Thanks again 

Edited May 26, 2014 by ZXCharlieR

[paul.h]

With a bit of luck, once the battey is charged it may start the car. I have found on our C5 if the battery drops below 12 volts there is not enough power to spin the engine fast enough for it to start. When you reconnect the battery, do not do it quickly since this could lead to errors - the procedure in this topic is a good one to follow and there are others in the C5 Technical section pinned posts for a bsi reset and the Common problems post http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/21427-radio-code-safe-to-remove-battery-for-charging/?do=findComment&comment=78182

 

I do not know how far you got searching the fault codes but P0020 comes up as a possible camshaft sensor/position actuator. I replaced a sensor on our 2010 petrol C3 recently, it stalled when trying to start but eventually started but that came up as P0341/2/3 inlet (bank 1) camshaft sensor (the exhaust one was ok), the engine light came on, it went to limp mode and anti pollution message. P0026 in a search came back possibly as electro valve to turbo. You could also check the swirl valve actuator ball/socket at the gearbox end of the cylinder head is intact.

 

When the car was working normally before the problem, what happened, did it just stall when hot and not restart ?

[ZXCharlieR]

Thanks for the info, much appreciated!

 

The car just stopped in mid journey and wouldn't start again, everything just died, the worst thing was that the battery was new not 6 months ago but I somehow feel that the garage didn't follow the sequence they should have during replacement which might have mucked it all up (BSI).

 

I will have a good look at everything on Wednesday.

 

Thanks again.

 

[paul.h]

If it is the camshaft sensor that has failed, it may be part no. 1920QN and about £25 if the 136 bhp engine, but you should check at a dealer for the right part against the car VIN. The sensor is located on top of the cylinder head, between the oil filler cap and the timing belt pulley. The cranshaft sensor may be part no. 19209C and about £18 but often these do not give a fault code, just stop the car when hot at first but then get worse and prevent the car starting.

 

There is only the one camshaft sensor on your car, our C3 has 2 so maybe this was allowing it to run with one faulty. The C3 sensors have 3 pins and using a meter a resistance could be measured between any 2 of the pins, whereas on the new ones it was only over 2 of them.

 

It may also pay to check the fuses, including any maxi fuses that are often hidden under the top layer of fuses in the engine fuse box.

[ZXCharlieR]

Thanks for the info, something I am pondering over after my look tomorrow is whether I get those parts to crack on and at least eliminate the risk of return. Then again, I have read that it may just be the software on the BSI going a bit silly and making false codes come up, on the other hand I have to query it due to the initial fault.

 

Ideally I would like to see if the timing belt is still in tact as if it were broken then I would be looking at a hefty bill (wasn't me driving so I didn't get a chance to notice any noises as all this happened).

I have looked at a few of the parts that you have mentioned and there are a few cheap ones out there but I am going to go for a Gates Timing Kit and a new actuator, I have also seen in Germany they do a swirl valve repair kit.

 

A bit of good news, both key fobs responded and now work, opening doors, lock, unlock, etc. as well as the alarm is now working! :) I know I didn't mention the key fobs before nor the alarm but now it seems relevant!  :blink:

 

Slowly but surely!!

 

Many thanks again!

[paul.h]

If you do need sensors, it may be better to get the proper ones from Citroen rather than copy ones. It may be possible to part remove/prise back the top timing belt cover to see if the belt looks ok - I used to do this on our last C3 since that was getting a bit old and similarly on our last C5 with the 2.2 hdi 136 bhp engine.

 

When I replaced the swirl valve actuator (official name is diaphragm) on our C5 it was only about £20 from Citroen so no need to get a repair kit. The plastic socket on it can be removed and put on the old one to save the hassle of replacing all of it if only the plastic bit is broken.

[ZXCharlieR]

OK, Just prized the cover to one side and yes, it's the Cam/Timing Belt! It is loose but I haven't progressed enough to see whether it has snapped but I suppose that if it is loose, then it's broken somewhere!!

I will however take some photos and let you guys see, that'll be better than putting everything into words!

Now to wonder if it has done any damage to the internals, some pointers would be great on spot checks I can do to test without having to strip the head off.

Many thanks again!

[Johndouglas]

O dear! That's bad news. The belt should be tight so it must have snapped. Usually it doesn't damage piston heads; instead it breaks some of the rockers and sometimes the camshaft. You should be able to see with the valve cover off.

 

Edit. I've just gone back to the start of your post and noticed yours is the 2.2 engine. In which case your problem is a bit more serious and it isn't just a simple look under the valve cover. Hopefully Steve will be along with more details.

[coastline taxis]

Before you spend another penny on anything see if your injectors will come out first. They are prone to sticking in and are a absolute pig to get out.

[ZXCharlieR]

Before you spend another penny on anything see if your injectors will come out first. They are prone to sticking in and are a absolute pig to get out.

 

Hi,

 

I have heard terrible stories but one person wrote a good little memo on it, you have to scrape at them and then prize out slowly, I have the time but I am thinking of just getting another engine and going from there.

 

I confirmed the engine details with Citroen this morning as to find the engine code was a bit of a task, definitely the DW12TED4 so C5's, 406/7's, 807's etc have all the same engine and essentially should just be a straight-forward job, well, more so than a rebuild.

 

Here are a couple of photos of how easy it was for me to pull one end of my broken cam belt out from the gap I made to look.

 

( edit 7/10/2017 photos no longer available using the link provided)

 

 

I can see that most of the wear is on the reverse side of the belt, is this normal? You can actually identify the teeth of the belt from the back.

 

Whichever way I look at it, it may be completely smashed inside but for the sake of £20 I am going to get another belt and turn it over by hand, see if it all moves with no ticking or horrible noises, if so then it may just be salvageable!

 

Thanks for the help guys but may I ask 1 more favor? Could you keep your ears to the ground for a cheap engine as you may have different circles and may just get me back on the road quicker because I now have 2 weeks to get her ready to run a few weeks to see if she'll do a trip to France for us.

 

I am no way getting rid of her, if you had a pig that saved you and your families lives on several occasions, would you eat it all at once?,I wouldn't, I would cut a leg off but give it a broom handle to keep it going!!  :)

 

Thanks again!

[ZXCharlieR]

Already found an engine, ok it's a bare one but it comes with warranty and done the same mileage as my car, now to see if the car will turn over, if not, backup plan in place!

[Johndouglas]

Although they use the same engine, C8's are well known for breaking their cambelts. All due to rain water making its way down into the belt area.

[ZXCharlieR]

Thanks John, I have read that Citroen have rectified this design floor with a drip tray that extends over the cam belt cover assuring this does not reoccur, would anyone have a part number for this by any chance?

 

Thanks again!

[ZXCharlieR]

OK, this is where my sincere lack of 100% confidence in my mechanic ...

I have asked if we should take the engine out and replace the parts that, well, may or may not be broken and inspect for a rebuild that will, with any luck, be just a top end, I mean, how much harm can be done by taking a look, what if it were all pretty much straight?

I ask this because when I suggested that I buy another engine to replace the current engine, he looked at me and suggested that we take a look to see if the head can be redone, then all of a sudden he remembered the engine type and said for me to go with the recon engine.

What would you do in my situation?

Thanks again guys, much appreciated!

[Johndouglas]

A few posts back Steve suggested you try and get the injectors out.   How are they looking?    They're well known for being very difficult to move and they've got to come out before you can remove the head.

[ZXCharlieR]

I honestly haven't had the time to do much as when you have to work weekends and have a baby (and an hysterical wife because it's the baby's 1st birthday!).

I think I am going to see what I can do tomorrow, the baby is with the childminder so ... I think first port of call is to put a cam belt on with everything aligned and then see if it locks or makes any funny noises, if it does then attack the engine change I shall.

Thanks again!

[ZXCharlieR]

OK, so I got the cam belt covers off but I am now bewildered, I don't have the pistons at tdc because I wanted to fest something first, if I turn the can pulley and it feels pretty must b free, would that ad use that the valves are in tact?

 

The issue I have is that I have turned many bike engines by hand and when it feels like the valves pop and slot back into position with a quick rotary bounce on the pulley, this would indicate functional valves, correct?

 

Hope someone can help as my mechanic is hell bent on swapping engines!!

 

Thanks again!!