C4 Grand Picasso Bluehdi 150 Automatic Gearbox

[WillR]

After a long wait I finally took delivery of my 2014 Grand Picasso BlueHDi 150 Automatic on 2nd April 2014. Initially, everything was wonderful, but after around 1600 miles the engine was noticeably noisy - very similar to a sticky hydraulic tappet. After a lot of argy-bargy, and a few heated words, the engine was replaced under warranty in October. Not long after this, I noticed that when the morning temperature was below 5ºC, the car would drive like a car with a CV box - engine rises to a static speed (2000rpm) and the road speed slowly catches up. The gearbox changed gear during this time as it normally did before the engine change (hot weather then), but if I took my foot off the accelerator at any speed up to 50mph and in any gear up to 5th, the engine speed dropped instantly to idle (~800rpm) and the car coasted with no power to the driving wheels and certainly no engine braking. This only lasted up to a maximum 3 miles (longer when colder and shorter when warmer) before the gearbox and torque converter changed back to normal operation with engine braking and no over-revving when accelerating.

Does anyone on this forum have the same car? They are as rare as a pint of hen's teeth, even in France, and I cannot find another one to compare with.

Citroen UK is investigating but we are going to run out of cold winter weather long before any resolution is found.

[paul.h]

Makes you wonder if something was done to the gearbox when the engine was changed, maybe the wrong oil used in it or maybe wrong oil level or the software altered - just thoughts since I have no experience of auto boxes.

[WillR]

Makes you wonder if something was done to the gearbox when the engine was changed, maybe the wrong oil used in it or maybe wrong oil level or the software altered - just thoughts since I have no experience of auto boxes.

Hi Paul.

 

Update: ... The gearbox was replaced on 15 April, and after two days, the same fault was found to bew present in the new gearbox. I do not believe in jinxes and I firmly believe that the new engine was definitely the creation point for the fault in both gearboxes.

 

At over £60 per litre the gearbox is delivered full, and is sealed for life (removal of and rotation - rolling around - does not result in oil leaks). I have spoken with several Diesel and electronics people and they all suggest the problem is being caused by a "rogue" temperature setting / sensor on the new engine or engine management computer (the gearbox has its own controller and calculates and implements shifts in accordance with instructions from the main ECU). After finally losing my rag with Citroen UK I have given them 30 days to sort it finally or I will be demanding a replacement car. When the car runs correctly it is absolutely fantastic, and the 150 neddies under the bonnet do their job extremely well. The only downside is the fuel consumption - 48-52 on a long trip and 40 around town. It does have, after all, a torque converter gearbox, which although I like the ETGS box on the 1.6 is just SOoo silky smooth when in operation.

[paul.h]

If it is a sensor fault you would think a good diagnostic check would find it when the engine/outside was cold and the fault was happening.

 

I do not know what the official fuel consumption is but your 48-52 and 40 round town seem good for a 150 hp engine with an auto gearbox and such a physically large car. I have found on a motorway if you drop your speed to about 65 from 70 mph the fuel use reduces quite a bit, even more if in the current 20 mile roadwork section at 50 mph on the M60/M62.

[WillR]

Hi Paul,

 

One would seriously like to think it is a detectable fault, but it currently appears to be beyond the ability of my local Citroen Dealer who has "looked at" the problem at least 8 times without getting any nearer to the answer. Now that the gearbox has been replaced, we can fairly confidently, rule out the gearbox as being faulty because the new one has the same fault. The only common denominator is the replacement engine, and any dedicated sensors or attached electronics.

 

You are right about the fuel consumption, but considering that Citroen got together with a Japanese specialist gearbox builder (AIT) to build this torque converter box to be as close to a manual or DSG box as possible, the end result fuel consumption wise is disappointing. My 180,000 mile old 2.2 HDI C5 auto (51 reg with 4-speed auto) and pumped up to 175 neddies by Superchips at 55,000 does 45-47 on the motorway. You are also right about keeping the car below 70mph, which we do even in France mostly. That is where the 52mpg comes from. We had a 57 reg 2.0HDi EGS Picasso and over 70 mph the fuel gauge looked like a Rev Counter.

 

Oh, well. We plod on...

[WillR]

Final Post in the life of CE14VMJ... C4 Grand Picasso 2.0 BlueHDi 150 EAT6 Exclusive+

At the end of the day, the following is the whole story.

1. The engine developed a fault sounding like a sticky hydraulic valve lifter at about 1600 miles. Many tests and audio recordings later it was decided by Citroen UK to replace the Injectors just in case the noise was injector based - it wasn't.! I then went off on my holiday to the South of France in September 2014, and I couldn't see the cars behind in the rear-view mirror for the vibration. Fuel consumption was rubbish too - 37mpg. That is disgusting!! I took the car to a Citroen garage in Frejus. They reprogrammed the injectors without the slightest hint of rolling eyes or staring heavenward, and they told me that they would fix the engine comprehensively if I left it there for a week. Sadly I didn't have enough days left to do that so we came home. SMOOTH DRIVE and 52MPG...! And we look down our noses at our Gallic neighbours..!!

2. Back home I chased up the engine fault to the tune of much sighing and looking anywhere but at me. Eventually after writing to the CEO of Citroen UK, the engine was replaced. BRILLIANT...

3. NO..!! GRrrrr...!!  After 3 days I could feel that the gearbox was not happy, freewheeling when I took my foot off the accelerator at all speeds up to 60mph when the temperature was below 10C. Back to the garage to report it. Took a video of the actions to show them, left the car overnight several times for them to test it early in the morning, and after a lot of screaming and threatening to reject the car they decided to change the gearbox. At this point I was not convinced the gearbox was faulty, but, hey, who's the expert?

4. The gearbox was replaced and EUREKA... The new gearbox had the same problem. Back to the garage again... More screaming and shouting and threatening to reject the car... Suddenly out of the blue after I was told most emphatically that "...this is how the gearbox is supposed to work..." to which I replied with lots of nearly rude words because NO CAR is designed to freewheel at up to 60mph just because the temperature is below 10ºC.

5. Out of the blue, I was offered my money back less £1800 (£100 per month that I had owned the car). When I remonstrated and said I would rather have the car fixed, this was refused, so I took the money and ordered a new car (exact same model) from a different dealer.

******************

And now some poor sucker is driving around Kent in my old Picasso with a dodgy gearbox, because if the garage couldn't fix TWO of them, I doubt if their third attempt was successful if they even tried....  :o  :unsure:

....

The fault..?? The engine and gearbox ECUs are not talking to each other properly, so the gearbox is constantly in a form of default (limp home) mode. This was confirmed by a Citroen engineer in London who had the same problem on a DS4 with a replaced gearbox. They could not get the engine and gearbox to communicate properly until they unbolted the gearbox and re-bolted it in a very special sequence. Sounds a bit space-age-ish but apparently true.

[paul.h]

Let us know how the new car performs, although most people would avoid the same car after a bad experience.

[WillR]

You are right Paul. We did think long and hard, but in the end the new C4 Picasso is a great car, and it only ever had one fault... The engine. The gearbox problems were caused by my local Citroen Garage's inability to make the engine and gearbox talk to each other.

****

Guess where our new Picasso is NOT going if anything ever goes wrong..??

****

The 2.0 diesel in this car is apparently a new engine through collaboration with Ford, and it is not a typical Citroen/Peugeot engine in that it is very much more mechanical-sounding, but it sure goes when you stamp on the loud pedal. Which I eventually got to be able to do after the new engine got to 5000 miles. The nearest thing to a down-side is the fuel consumption, which is nowhere near the 60+ promised... Careful driving (below 80mph) will give you up to 50mpg in France (better diesel) and about 40-45mpg here in the UK.

****

I'll post a report at about 2500 miles in the new car, which should be the middle of October as we're off the South of Frog 5 days after we take delivery at the end of August.