C5 Tourer 2.00 Hdi 2010 Automatic Gearbox Persistant Problem

[Valleyprint]

Hi, I live in France, and I have today joined this forum, which I have to say, I find impressive. I bought two years ago C5 tourer 2010.

I have a nagging problem with the automatic gearbox, for example; I drive on the motorway up hill, 6 the gear drops down to 5th in to safe mode. Three signal bongs are heard, sign on dashboard gearbox fault, service, and display of gearlever positions.

I had changed the correct fluid = no different. I bought from Poland a second hand gearbox complete with valve box (from an accident crash 2000 Euros) only about one year old, had it fitted, same problem arisen, changed both drive shafts, since vibration had occurred, now cured. I bought four new correct type Michelin tyres. Both the drive shafts and tyres did slightly reduce the problem. But the problem persist, the slightest resistance a little more peddle, three bongs. I drove 650 kilometres to the South of France pulling a small single axle trailer, 'bong bong bong' so…drove in manual mode. I am not completely convinced at this stage that it could be 2 electro valves. but I am willing to try anything.

I was in Manchester last year for a holiday, called in to the Citroen garage and left the car for three days, paid £120 quid diagnosis report. Citroen could only find reported codes, they proposed I should buy a new gearbox £10.000 + fitting. 'Well… of course I didn't'.

If anyone can help, I will be most grateful. Are there any sensors that I should look at, if so how many, and where will I find them? And finally has anyone have a workshop manual in English.

Thanks in advanced.

[Rookie2]

Did you have the torque convertor changed ? what mileage has the vehicle done ?

 

The torque convertor does wear, the close tolerance moving plates inside the convertor simply wear away, this wear causes the torque convertor to produce less pressure of oil. Less pressure of oil means that the gearbox valves are stuggling to open and close and struggling to maintain selection.

[Valleyprint]

Yes, the torque convertor was changed at the same time as the gearbox and the mileage is 79,000 miles. Thanks for replying to me. Any information you could give me would be great. Thank you very much.

[Rookie2]

The citroen auto boxes are driver adaptive, they recognise how you drive and adapt to your style.

Was the driver adaptation reset when the gearbox was changed ?

 

If not, then it could be that the gearbox is adapting to a set of parameters that existed on the old gearbox which do not exist on the new.

Remembering back to the old citroen al4 auto's I am sure they had a procedure to clear the adaptive memmory.

[Valleyprint]

Rookie2, Thanks for your advise. The drive adaptive is new to me, but had had all fault codes removed at the time the gearbox was changed.

What diagnostic software would you recommend, I've looked at Ebay, but somehow it looks a bit dodgie.

 

When the warmer weather arrives I will have another go at it, and when I eventually discover this troubling problem, I will write to you again and share with you  a hopefully soluble solution. With patience it may take some time.

[Rookie2]

Remembering back to when I had the AL4 auto box, there was a simple method to set the driver adaptive to default but for the life of me I cannot remember how I did it.. It has to be failry simple otherwise when someone sells a car, the new owner, who drives differently to the original owner, would not have a very enjoyable drive.

 

The adaptive system gets used to how hard you accelerate and brake, how often you use kickdown etc.

[Valleyprint]

Rookie2, 

Citroen C5 lll 2.0 TDi Auto 2010  165h. I discovered the original gear box; Aisin AM6 -otherwise known as AF40 - TF80sc code no. 20GF13              

If you remember, I had fitted another gearbox, to my surprise a different code no. 20GF24. I'm beginning to think that may be the electro valves are at fault, certainly a coincidence for same problem two boxes. Anyway,…I would really like to know, what is the difference between 20GF13 and 20GF24, obviously the first box had belong to the C5, the gear ratios appears to be the same, and they fit perfectly, but what is the latter box for, is it a later model, or is it for a different car, I really would appreciate your thoughts on the matter. it's killing me.

 

I also bought a diagnostic tool KlavKar scanner EOBD with fault code P1741 Torque Converter Clutch Circuit Performance or Stuck Off.

look forward to hearing from you, thanks in advance

Edited April 11, 2017 by Valleyprint

[paul.h]

I could not find any info on the differences between a 13 and 24 gear box but your problem may be related to the fault code you have found.

 

This could be the initialisation procedure:

N.B. : For all these operations, follow the procedure in the diagnostic tool.

 

1. Replacing the automatic gearbox without replacing the ECU

Perform the following operations :

• Initialisation of the neutral position of the gear selection lever position sensor
• Adaptation programming procedure of the oil pressure solenoid valves and regulators
• Initialising the autoadaptives
• Reset to zero of the oil usage counter

2. Replacement of the automatic gearbox ECU

Perform the following operations :

• Read the value of the gearbox oil usage counter from the old ECU
• Write the oil usage counter value into the new ECU
• Initialisation of the neutral position of the gear selection lever position sensor
• Adaptation programming procedure of the oil pressure solenoid valves and regulators
• Initialising the autoadaptives

3. Replacing the automatic gearbox and the automatic gearbox ECU

Perform the following operations :

• Initialising the autoadaptives
• Reset to zero of the oil usage counter
• Adaptation programming procedure of the oil pressure solenoid valves and regulators

4. Draining the automatic gearbox oil

Perform the following operations :

• Adaptation programming procedure of the oil pressure solenoid valves and regulators
• Reset to zero of the oil usage counter

N.B. : For downloading of the automatic gearbox ECU, there is no specific operation ; Follow the diagnostic equipment procedure.

CAUTION : For a certain period, a quality of gear change can be obtained which is more or less satisfactory (adaptation of ECU parameters to the gearbox). To obtain satisfactory gear changing quality, it is necessary to carry out a road test involving frequent gear changes (Auto-adaptive laws).

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P1741 Torque Converter Clutch Control Error

 

A search came up with a few things to check from here http://www.myairbags.com/obd-dtc-code/p1741-torque-converter-clutch-control-error/

Code

P1741

Possible causes

• Low level or dirty transmission fluid
• Faulty Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid
• Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid harness is open or shorted
• Torque Converter Clutch Solenoid circuit poor electrical connectio

Possible symptoms

• Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)

Description

With the engine running in gear at cruise speed and the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) detects an error due to excessive Torque Converter Clutch (TCC) operation

[Valleyprint]

Sorry it’s taken so long to report back to you all.

Eventually found a good French garage to make good the repair to my car.

It turns out, the fault was the new torque converter was fitted with an ill fitted oil seal. Labour charge 800€. Glad to pay it, it’s running sweet.

All the trouble and expense that caused me to trust a friend, unnecessarily replaced gearbox, new valve bloc complete,

I must say at this point, because of my eventual distrust of my friend the mechanic,

I ordered from Sussex Autoparts, England a remanufactured torque converter, the turnaround was very fast. I put my trust to my friend again to fit the torque converter. After he finished the job, it pissed out with oil. He refused to put it right, hence the hard search for a garage that is willing to take the job on, after a ploncker who couldn't do the job right.

And accidently, he had convinced me that he had changed the torque converter that came with the replacement gearbox.

I researched the serial number of the converter given back to me, it turns out to be from a Peugeot, it proved unequivocally that  he had not change the converter. 

 

Whose the mug of the year? you guessed it,= me...Thank you all for all the great advice you have given me.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Valleyprint

[paul.h]

Good to see you have managed to fix your car and thankyou for getting back to us. Sounds as if the garage you have found is worth while using again if you have any future problems and it would likely be cheaper than using the friend.