C5 Mk2 2007 Engine Dies...

[c5lover]

Hi Guys,

I have following situation with my C5. 2.0 HDI DOHC.

Around 1 week ago, during driving around 50 mph, engine shut off. There was no signal diode, it just stopped to work. I could car inertia to get to safe place. Only think I new I can do was to use rubber fuel pump. After few squeezes, I tried to start and it worked. I was able to drive remaining 35 miles or so.

This situation was around 80 miles after service - including fuel filter.

So I put my car back to garage, but they found nothing (and haven't charged a penny ;)).

But yesterday, it happened again - and it was stressful, as my family was on board. First time it started after few rubber pump squeezes,  but next 2 times were much worse - we had to (me and my wife) use starter for about 3-4 minutes until it started. And last time it was turning off several time on idle, and when we decided to drive, car choke 2 or 3 times, but eventually we manage to get last 20 miles home. It was rather stressful as we were on M25...

 

So my question is, what could be culprit? I know it could be lot of things, but maybe you could at least give me some clues? I was reading about fuel pump failures or even faulty electric connectors. What makes me think, when it dies, I don't see any diode like check engine - could it mean that ECU might not be involved and fault might be mechanical? I was thinking (or read somewhere) about faulty air, could it be a problem?

 

I would also like to know if there is some cheap device I can buy to check engine errors by myself?

 

Best!

[Randombloke]

 

I would also like to know if there is some cheap device I can buy to check engine errors by myself?

 

 

If you have an Android phone then you can buy an EOBD II to Bluetooth adaptor for about £7 on eBay.

 

You then need to Bluetooth connect this to your phone, running an App like Torque Lite (check for it in the Google Play Store).

 

From 2004 all diesel engines sold in the EU were EOBD II compliant.

 

Try this:http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-ELM327-OBD2-Bluetooth-Car-Diagnostic-Fault-Code-Reader-Clearer-Scanner-Tool-/361965537339?hash=item5446d3c83b:g:PBEAAOSw-3FZAz5w

 

Sounds like a fuel cut off relay failure, or an iffy fuse connection, or a fuel pressure relief valve but theses would all show up on the engine light.

[paul.h]

It is probably a fault that does not generate a fault code / engine management light. A failing crankshaft sensor could do this, they tend to fail as they get hot and once cool let the engine run again. Next time it happens just let the engine cool rather than pumping the fuel primer and see if it starts. It might be Citroen part 1920GJ but this should be checked using your VIN. An ebay search suggests a new one will be about £30 to £40 so it could be worth replacing it. For anything else though you will need a diagnostic check but for something intermittent it might not show up when checked.

[mhedwig]

Sounds like the fuel filter is faulty or not sealing properly

[c5lover]

Hi,

thanks guys for your answers, I really appreciate this :)

I would put another part of story:

So after a year I bought a car, I put to local garage for cambelt change and oil replace - it was around 15th of April. They also found error on camshaft sensor and replaced it.

 

After aprox. 20 miles after leaving garrage, engine stoped, and we were priming it for like 5-10 minutes, and its started. After another 40 miles, it stopped again - this time cannot started. My friend asks local car 'magician'. He came, and apparently he cleaned camshaft sensor - it was wet and around 1.5 litter of coolant was missing (I bet this was garage fault, as they were fitting water pump as well). He connected car to some device, and restarted car by pulling 'master error' away.

I put car to garage next day and they said connectors on camshaft sensor were 'loose'....

 

And car was running well until service - when they changed also fuel filter. Then story described in first post happened...

 

I have few more questions:

1. Does fuel pressure relief valve is inside high pressure fuel pump, which is driven by cambelt, right?

2. Could cambelt job cause the problem, I read somewhere that wrong tension might be case: https://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?1861-306-HDI-High-Pressure-Fuel-Pump

3. @mhedwig fuel filter seems to be very easy repair to perform, is this really possible by garage to fail it?

 

People in garage are very nice (well, I left there in total 1700 GBP for cambelt, oil change, front pads and brakes, service, mot), but this missing water and possible bad job on fuel filter is worrying...

 

PS. I bought https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stoga-CAN-BUS-ENGINE-SCANNER-Diagnostic/dp/B005FOIC3I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1497174764&sr=8-2&keywords=odb%2Breader&th=1 what is your opinion about this unit?

 

Best!

[paul.h]

The camshaft sensor should not be getting wet since this is on top of the engine. The crankshaft sensor is probably the one you mention since this may be next to the crankshaft pulley and below the water pump. If the water pump is leaking on to this sensor then that could be the problem causing the engine to cut out. Possibly the gasket on the water pump/engine block is leaking but to sort this needs the timing belt job doing again. Or possibly the sensor and its electrical connection just got wet when changing the water pump and it was not cleaned/dried afterwards or maybe the wiring is damaged. The low coolant level could have been an air lock that cleared once the engine was run or there is a leak so the level needs  to be checked.

 

1700 gbp seems high for this work but without knowing all the details it is not possible to tell. As an example our Citroen dealer charges about £325 to replace the timing belt, an extra approx £100 to add the water pump and about an extra £50 to flush out and replace the anti freeze on our 2.2 hdi C5. A service is around £250 depending on what is done, I would think replacing the front pads/discs may be up to £300. The MOT is about £55 but often less.

[c5lover]

I called garage and again they can not find any issue. They will try to measure fuel pressure in injectors - they suggested maybe one injector does something with pressure in fuel system and makes engine cut off due mechanical failure? But they, why it would refuse to start again since it was mechanical? Is it ever possible that mechanical failure would cause engine cut off without any feel, like choking?

 

Another thing, suggested by mechanic, is ECU problem - it might not store errors. What do you think? Symptoms feel like camshaft/crankshaft sensor, but error should be stored, right? Are there any circumstances that it might fail silently? Could it be something with wiring - as I mentioned, we had similar issue before, maybe sensor is faulty?

 

Also, is this possible to use cheap ODB reader to detect faults? I read that Lexia is better, but in which way?

 

As I would like to learn more, are there some manuals/schemas how fuel system is build in my C5, what would you recommend?

[paul.h]

Could still be the crankshaft sensor or its wiring so these should be checked. The wiring could have been damaged during the cam belt change so it should be checked. If the sensor is faulty it does not see the engine turning so it thinks the engine is switched off, hence no fault code. With the Citroen diagnostic equipent you should be able to see a signal from the sensor.

 

Is the garage a Citroen one with the correct diagnostic tools ?

 

A cheap code reader will not help, you need something that can do a full diagnostic check, such as the Lexia. You could try a Citroen dealer for the check, they charge about £70.

[c5lover]

Could still be the crankshaft sensor or its wiring so these should be checked. The wiring could have been damaged during the cam belt change so it should be checked. If the sensor is faulty it does not see the engine turning so it thinks the engine is switched off, hence no fault code. With the Citroen diagnostic equipent you should be able to see a signal from the sensor.

How is this possible that it happens every several miles and rapidly? For my understanding, sensor won't give any signal, but for my understanding it should causing an error since ignition is still 'on'.

[paul.h]

If it is a damaged wire, possibly it moves about and maybe a bare section touches the engine metal part shorting it out every now and again. If the sensor is faulty the coils in them can break but the gap betwen the damage occurs as it warms and expands but when it cools down the gap closes up. If you have a resistance meter you could check the sensor across its connector when cold and  hot to see if there is any difference.

 

You can search the internet for symptoms of a failed sensor and as an example http://www.doityourself.com/stry/7-crankshaft-position-sensor-failure-symptoms

[MikeLane]

Was the water pump changed when the cambelt was?

If the sensor gets wet after a few miles it could be that the water pump gasket(?) leaks when the coolant gets hot and pressure rises.

Perhaps you could check the bolts for tightness/correct torque.

(I'm not sure whether this car has a fuel lift pump in the tank?)

[c5lover]

Was the water pump changed when the cambelt was?

If the sensor gets wet after a few miles it could be that the water pump gasket(?) leaks when the coolant gets hot and pressure rises.

Perhaps you could check the bolts for tightness/correct torque.

(I'm not sure whether this car has a fuel lift pump in the tank?)

Hard to say. Since like 500 miles coolant keeps level. Torque is one think I may check later, but my garage seems to be quite popular and I don't belive they could make such mistake. When I will get car back I will try to move crankshaft sensor cable to see if it will cut the engine (need to think how though).

 

Is there some resource with technical schemas? Unfortunetelly Haynes shows only how to change things, I would like to learn more how car is working - maybe I could understand myself what is wrong...

[paul.h]

To check the water pump bolts will need the timing covers removing so not an easy job. If there are no more signs of coolant leaking then it could be the gasket is not leaking but the initial coolant on the sensor could have been from when the pump was replaced. When I changed the pump on our C3 I did not bother draining the coolant first but just let it run out down the engine as the pump was removed and I would expect most would do this to save time. The bolts are not done up that tight (16 Nm from Haynes) but are done diagonally so the pump is seated evenly.

 

Since the crank sensor is next to the crankshaft pulley and alternator belt, when the engine is running you do not want to be putting your hands anywhere near it and I am sure you already know this. Also beware that if going under the car you should raise it to max height first and then use axle stands since if a height sensor is caught the suspension can quickly drop to a very low level, quicker that you can get out of the way - this also applies if you are going to jack the car up or suspension faults can occur.

[c5lover]

Hi Guys,

thank you for your help.

I got car back from garage in Friday - they haven't done anything except injector testing. Since Friday, I drove 6 x 30 miles and nothing happened.

So garage did test on injectors - they said they connected them to pressure measurement machine and one injector sometimes don't give enough pressure. According to them, its returning lot of fuel to tank and it makes disturbance in rail which makes fuel pressure drop and engine dies. But I am not convinced:

* first, I don't see this could cause such disturbance (well, I need to learn now more about common rail systems)

* second, I don't want to change injector

 

My plan for now is to:

* check ECU in authorised garage (or TRUSTY garage north from Thames in London - please PM me if you know someone)

* check injector pressures

 

@paul.h

Thanks for advice! I will be very careful.

[MikeLane]

"Since Friday, I drove 6 x 30 miles and nothing happened."

Do you mean you had no problems during these drives? If so it may be that the garage cleared the fault(s) without realising it.

I think I'd drive it around for a few days before taking the car anywhere else (and spending more money!)

[paul.h]

You would think if it is stopping due to low fuel pressure there would be a fault code. A search on Citroen low fuel pressure fault code came up with this http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/topic84997-1-1.aspx which seems similar to your problem and turned out to be an injector fault.

[c5lover]

Hi Guys,

so over weekend I did more then 220 miles, where 85 miles was longest journey. Only thing is, steering wheel shakes a little approaching 65 mph, but very gently. Maybe it is because garage convinced me to buy cheap evergreen tires....

My previous C5 was driving much better, even 120 mph (in Germany) was very smooth.

 

I am starting to think it was this weird, one off thing. I will probably do another 500 miles before I will go to camping trip in Alpes - hopefully it won't break there!

[paul.h]

Since your car has been running ok for the last week it could still have been the coolant that spilt on to the sensor and it has dried out and the problem gone.

 

The new tyres/wheels may need to be balanced again to stop the steering wheel shake. Sometimes Citroen wheels need an adaptor to fit on the balancing machine and possibly not every tyre fitting place have them.