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Power Steering Faliure - Help Needed


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Posted

Hello! I am having troube with my Xantia. This time the problems are related to the power steering, few days ago, i was driving at some 120 km/h on the highway, and during the ride i noticed that the steering wheel is somewhat harder to turn, this was even more obvious when i entered a city. So i concluded that something is wrong with the steering:

 

I've searched the Internet and looked up in Heynes, but i found nothing concrete. In Heynes Manual there are two types of problems related to the steering:

Power steering malfunction

and Excessively stiff steering

 

I am not quite sure what of those is my problem. When I start the car the steering is very hard, but it is not continious. If there was a complete power steering faliure, should the steering had a constant hardness? If you dont understand this, i will try to explain it further: When i start tourning the well, i come upon "bumps". I have to push hard to turn the wheel, and then the wheel tourns fast for some 100 degrees and than again i have to invest aditional force to overcome this "bump". One more notion, the bumb is not associated to any soung, i am just using it to explain the problem. Erlier I use to hear a fluid flow when ever i turned harder. I havent noticed that sound.

 

On the Internet I found that the power steering system needs a lot of LHM at short time periods to function properly (while the breakes dont need that much). So i checked the LHM Fluid level, and toped up a litle. Actualy the car didnt rise to its maximum position, when i set it so, i first had to top a litle (perhaps 0,3 - 0,4 l).

 

Can anyone advise me what should i do and where could the problem be. How much would such a repair cost. I have a car junkyard in the neiberhood and there are a lot of xantias. Would used parts be useful in a DIY repair?

 

I have the car for 4,5 months and i made 13000 Km in it. For that 13000 Km I toped 1,2 l of LHM (including the last toping). Is this bad? I suspect there is a leak, but i can not afford to take the car to a service. In those 13000 Km the heat blowers speed resistor and the blower itselft had to be changed and the front diplights. I am preaty satisfied with the car, when i consider that it has 360000 Km under its wheels.

 

Oh, and thanks the time it took you to read this topic.

Happy New Year!

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

This sounds very much like a problem I had with my '92 1.9d. The problem started with the car taking a long time to "rise" from starting up and the "Stop" light going out. The next phase of the problem was the "intermittent" steering assistance that you are describing. The car was reasonably new at the time (Early '96) and it turned out it had been the subject of a Citroen recall which had been missed. The problem was the Hydraulic pump itself which was changed free of charge at the time. All was back to normal with the new pump and remained so until I sold the car.

 

If you suspect there is a leak on the LHM system, the only failure that I have personally experienced was on my current 2.0 HDi, and was on the pipe going from the pump to the steering rack. Part of it is steel and part is rubber and it can fail where one material joins the other.

 

I'm not sure where you are but I suspect Eire (Kilometres?). If you can get a replacement pump from a breakers, make sure it's the correct one for the car you have. GSF list 9 different ones. Try a search in ebay for "Xantia Hydraulic pump". I turned up a guy in Bristol who sells them for £25 plus postage.

 

The power steering pipe will have to come from Citroen if it's failed.

Posted

Hello! Thanks for the answer. I am living in Denmark, and i tried searchig the german ebay for a hydraulic pump without success.

 

I am not sure if the rising problem is consistent. Tomorow I will have more time to test everything out. First i will change the cars position from low to high a couple of times, and then I will search for leaks acroding to Your instructions. I will also try to see if the noise of fluid flow is still there when making hard turns.

 

I also found this topic:

http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citro...amp;hl=steering

 

The problems seem to be very similiar.

 

One more thing, i am not sure, perhaps it is just my imagination (one does not make hard tourns on higher speeds and sim.), but it look to me, that after 30 Kms of driveing (geting warm) the steering was better.

Posted

Hi All,

I am following this thread carefully as my steering has suddenly gone stiff. Had the spheres changed a couple of months ago, and had a leak, which lost me a lot of fluid. Since then the steering was OK till about three weeks ago. I suspect that there may have been a bit of dirt sucked into the pump maybe? Wonder wether it`s worth getting the system flushed?

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

Yes. I have read the other post now and it all sounds very familiar. As you say in your original (first) post, the steering requires quite a bit of volume flow when in use, the suspension requires very little once it has reached it's height. Does your car have "Anti Sink" suspension? My '96 did but the '92 did not and took a LONG time ( several minutes towards the end) to reach working height. The brakes only require pressure (not much flow) which is present once the red "STOP" (Well it says STOP here anyway!) light has gone out. If you drop your car down and pump it up again and it takes a long time then the pump is at fault.

 

Of course it may just be choked filters in the LHM reservoir so it may be worth checking them out before condemning the pump. They can be accessed by removing the clip on the LHM reservoir cover and "Rolling" the cover out with the pipes still attached.

 

As you say, you should be able to hear a "hissing" sound as the wheel is turned. This is the sound of the high pressure oil in the Xantia system flowing through to the rack. If the pump is failing (Or the filters are badly choked) the pressure it is able to provide will drop due to an inability to pump properly. If the steering improved as you drove farther it MAY just be choked filters as the oil will become thinner as it warms up, and be better able to pass the filter. Check them first. How long is it since they were done? I do mine once a year. Cheers. Hope this helps.

Posted

In the last couple of days I have been experimenting with my xantia, here is what i dound out:

-It takes the car longer to rise to its normal driving position, than it did 3 months ago (it used to take maks 30 secs, now it takes more than a couple of minutes.

-After driving some 20 km the stearing becomes more and more normal, sometimes it works almost perfectly. At this times i heared the hissing sound laud and clear (lol hissing clear :D)

 

after reading your post, i have concluded that you are probably right about the filters, since there are times when the stearing is functioning normaly.

 

Another factor that has to be taken in to consideration is the avarage temperature. It seems to me, the colder it gets in Denmark the stiffer is my stearing.

 

During Fall i never noticed such an extream difference.

(perhaps the problem was there even on last years winter(2006/2007) - i can not tell since I bought the car in August 2007)

 

Tomorow I will check the filters.

 

Thanks for the help once again

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

The temperature shouldn't make a huge difference if the filters are clean and the pump is in good condition.

 

However, if the filters are choked and, with 360K km on the clock, the pump won't be perfect, you should expect some drop off in pump performance.

 

The LHM fluid should also be changed periodically, and with such a high "milage" on the car it may have been omitted. It may be a good idea to change the fluid at the same time as doing the filters, also Citroen can provide a flushing agent to clean out a system which has been neglected. This may not cure the problem but it certainly won't do any harm.

 

Cheers Hope this helps.

Posted

So... here is what I think about everything. I have 2 Years of driving expirience, and i dont intend to buy a new car until i have 3 (there are special discounts after 3 years on insurence - which is a real ripoff, i have to pay 1500 € per year for the car). So i would like to keep the car for one more year. After that I will buy a 2000 HDI activa :D. Cannt wait to drive that. My xantia doesnt even have hydractive. I dont have the resources to invest a lot of money in to it currently (perhaps 300 €). Recently i changed the oil and the oilfilter myself, i thought about changing the following things:

 

-air filter (how hard is it to change the air filter on my xantia?) (5-10 €?)

-hydraulic spheres (6 0f them - i found on ebay for 23,4 € each - 134,4€)

-hydraulic fluid (i already bought 6 liters 42,6€)

-brakes - discs & calipers, front and rear ( i tryed to see the condition of the brakes, but after i take of the wheal i dont have any refenrece to compare, hence i dont know if they are ok, but i suspect that they should be replaced, who knows when was that done last time. (90 € discs + brakes)

the belt was changed on 298000 km.

-refill cooling (complete flush) (10 €)

-i have to repair my horn, haven't done it yet, because its hard to access.

-sparks (do i have any benefit from that?) - 20€?

-fuel filter - 10 €

 

what do you think about the engine cleaning fluids?

 

I am not sure if it is worth investing in this car. I mean, it has 360000 km under its wheals. What if things start braking up alot?

 

What can you tell me abouth xantias? had anyone had expierence with one, that has such a high "mileage"? What can I expect? DO you have something to add to the list of things needed to be replaced? Are there any special tools required for the aformentioned replacements (except the chain tool needed for the Spheres - can it be done with out it?)?

 

update: i just browsed the Haynes manual, there it's writen that a compression test should be carried out to see if an engine is worth investing & maintaining. How much should one cost?

 

This reply tourned out to be longer than expected, lots of questions...

Thanks to everyone whos contributing.

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

To be honest with you, it's probably not worth spending money on such an elderly car if you're going to replace it anyway. Just do the bare minimum to keep it legal and safe.

 

The air filter should be very easy to do and you should have a look at it at the very least. The Spark plugs also should be checked and replaced if in any doubt as to their condition. They DO make a difference to the good running of the car.

 

As for changing the spheres. Have a look at this forum for the procedure for changing spheres http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citro...?showtopic=4507

Again, if the car is riding OK it won't be cost effective if you don't intend keeping the car.

 

You'll find info about the braking system here http://my.opera.com/Brecknaheim/blog/

It's my own web space and you're welcome to have a look at my pictures and stuff at the same time.

 

The horn can be accessed through the left hand indicator lamp and from underneath the bumper. It is tricky and you'll need a few sticky plasters before you're done!

 

A compression test can be done by screwing a suitable gauge (not expensive for a petrol engine) into each sparkplug hole in turn and cranking the engine. Do this with all spark plugs removed so the engine won't start. To be fair, if the engine is running and starting OK there is not much need to do this unless you think you have a problem.

 

Don't know anout your Choice of "Dream car" Mine is a 110 HDi LX and is perfectly adequate. I'm sure some people will disagree, but I'm not overly struck on the "active" suspension. It's not noticeably better in general usage and is VERY MUCH MORE COMPLEX. I reckon the benefits are minimal for the extra hassle, especially on an older car. If you can find an SX it will serve you just as well without the complication.

 

All in all the Xantia is fairly DIY friendly. Most things can be done with basic tools which now should include a set of "Torx" bits as most cars use these fasteners now. Other than the tool you ned for the spheres, you should be able to tackle most things easily.

 

Cheers

Posted

Thanks Colin for the reply and the link.

 

First things first, i will try to solve the problem by taking care of the LHM filter. I will have a look at it today (hopefuly I will manage to find some time). And report back what I've found out.

 

Regarding the car.... Well if my xantia would work good, i would keep, since i dont see any purpose in investing money to replace something thats working. So if it was worth to repair this xantia, i would be buying a new one. But if this one is to start braking apart, than... An other thing is the car-test that i have to do in April in order to qualify the car for 2 more years of driving...

 

Thanks for contributing

I will write back soon

Posted

Hi all,

I think that my problem also stems from the filters as when the engine gets warm the steering becomes less stiff. However tried to have a look at the filters today but was unable to get them out!! The clip on top of the tank came off OK but just could not get it to come up far enough, I think it might be easier to remove the pipes first. By the look of things I dont think that the filters have ever been cleaned, only thing is, is there an easy way of getting the clips off the hoses! They are the original clips put on by citroen.

By the way nice picture on your website Colin, nice to have a face to go with name.

Cheers

Dave

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

It is awkward, but it can be done by "rolling" the cover out with the pipes attached. Possibly the most awkward service job on the car.

 

Thanks for the "thanks" if that makes sense! :D

 

Did you have a look at my Shetland photos?

 

Cheers and happy tinkering! ;)

Posted

Soz Colin not had a look yet at the shetland photos, but have been up there a few times!! Thats if you cancall landing at Scatsta on a fixed wing and then leaving on a chopper a visit :D

Anyway down to business, have decided to leave it up to my mechanic to do, as it has developed a leak from round about the accumalator sphere, went out in it this morning and nothing, however when I went round this afternoon there was a puddle of LHM fluid on the floor, so I was wondering if there was a small leak in the system could this also be the cause of the steering problems as there would be a drop in pressure? Any thoughts?

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

Really wouldn't like to say on that one! It's not something I've ever come across! It certainly won't help but I would go for the filters and pump first. Don't take this as gospel as I'm really not at all certain. Sorry! :D

 

If You've flown in and out os Scatsta you've probably flown over the top of my House in Brae! Also noticed the Tugs lying at Sellaness Jetty? That's where I work. Which Rig do you work on? Cheers and Sorry again that I can't be of more help.

Posted

No probs, I will let the pro have a look.

Yes I have seen the tugs, next time I find myself up that way I will give you a wave :lol:

I have been on the Ninian South about three times and the Murchison the once, although I have not been up that way for the last couple of years. :(

Posted

AAAAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!

Right now I`ve got that off my chest we shall begin, car went in to the pros this morning to investigate a leak in the accumalator area and stiff steering. It would seem that the culprit is whatever the accumulator sphere screws onto is cream crackered. :blink: Is this the hydraulic pump? If it is any ideas which one is required for a 95 reg 1.9TD SX. I have looked on the GSF website, but there are 8 listed and I can`t decipher which I need.

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

No it's not the pump. That's on the front of the engine and is driven off the multi V belt. The part you need will either have to come off a dead Xantia or from Citroen. I wouldn't think you'll get it 3rd party. (May be wrong). Go to Citroen (you'll need the Vin number for them to access the spares database) and ask to see the part you need on the computer. Ask for a print-out of the pretty picture so you can take it with you,and you could ask the price of the relevant bit from them. Mightn't be too bad, You never know. If it's heart stopping then try http://www.pugcit.co.uk/index.html or http://www.partsgateway.co.uk/

 

Cheers! PS, Could hear the screams from here! :blink:

Posted

Thanks Colin,

You are a breath of fresh air, there is a good scrapper near me where my pro goes when he needs second hand bits, so if it`s not the pump I think I will tell him to have a look and see what he can find.

Kinda makes we wonder if that has been the problem all along? Have noticed a low rapid clicking sound when accelarating hard, I think that this is related to the leak. Somebody said that where the leak is, is a safety valve?? the french call it "conjocteur-disjoncteur". Apparently it is something to do with the pump. Anyway will keep you posted as to the outcome.

Oh, by the way I did`nt realise I was screaming that loud!!! Mind it must have been loud if you could here it up there from deepest darkest Cumbria!!!! :blink:

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

It sounds to me as if your accumulator sphere has failed as well. this acts as a fluid reservoir and "buffer" in the system. If it fails it causes the clicking you have heard. This, in turn could lead to rapid fluctuations in system pressure leading to other component failures. That's what may have caused the problem.

 

PS I was only kidding, the wind was in the wrong direction! Must have been somebody in Norway! :lol:

Posted

Morning Colin,

Just spoke to the pro, as when I went down yesterday he was out and had to speak to one of the minions. It turns out that it is the pressure regulator that is leaking and not the pump, he had spoken to Citroen and they reckon there are 8 different ones and they needed the chassis number. They rang him back and quoted £165 for a new one. OUCH!!! Have been looking on the net and can only find 2 listed for Xantia`s, and one of those is for a XANTIA 2.0 16V;DIESEL, 1.8, 1.6. So I am now debating do we try a scrapper or bite the bullet and get a new one! decisions, decisions, decisions!!!! :lol:

Oh, before I forget. The accumulator sphere was changed about the beginning of November. Have got to say that the clicking was worse before I had it changed.

Posted

Hello people! I finaly found the time and suitable weather to take a look at my car. I tried to remove the top of the reservoir by removing the metal clip that holds it, and than pulling it out. Unfornately that is not possible, atleast not with my car. I can only lift it 4-5 cm. It can't go any higher because of the hoses that attach to it.

 

Is there any solution for this? Am I missing something?

 

Do I have to remove the whole resorvoir to do it? If yes, i would change the LHM at the same time.

 

I quess that i dont have to depresurise the sistem to remove the filters?

 

And one more thing about cleaning the sistems. I have prepared a plastic box and 2 litters of Petrol ( Super 95 bleifrei :D - i dont know how is it called on english). and also a pair of plastic gloves. i plan to remove the filter and clean it that way, and than i will go to a local fuel station and use the tire-pump to blow the filters with air.

 

Do I need to clean both of the filters?

 

Best Regards

 

One more question:

On the rear lights of my Xantia there is a ABS sticker. But the previos owner told me that the car does not have one. I am thinking if it is possible that didn't wanted to say that the abs system is broken. Sometimes when I drive the abs lamp on the instruments board tourns on. Sometimes it lasts only a couple of secs, sometimes it stays tourned on for a while. Can you please describe in detail how to check if my car has ABS. I know it has with the ECU to do, but could find any pictures on the net to confirm it.

 

THanks

Guest Colin Hunter
Posted

Hi Darko! Sorry It's taken a while for this reply. I didn't notice that you'd posted again. Regarding the LHM Tank lid. If you unclip all the hoses from the side of the tank it is possible to raise the lid enouigh to get it out. Clean both the filters you find. If you want to you can syphon out the old fluid or remove the tank and clean it out too if you can be bothered. You don't have to de-pressurise to clean the filters. Bleifrie is literally lead free, or as we say here "Un-leaded"

 

Seeing your car is a Mk1 it may or may not have abs. Mk2s had it as standard. Look on the Drivers side of the car (Yours that is!) Starting from the front there is the battery, then a box holding fuses and relays. In between that box and the LHM Tank there should be a black object with pipes and wires coming out of it. Also a RED catch on the wiring connector. If it's there it's the abs control unit and you have abs. if it's absent you dont!

 

When you are out driving try braking sharply on a wet road (Make sure no other vehicles behind!) and see if the abs kicks in. You will feel the brake pedal vibrating under your foot. If it does not and the wheels lock then either you dont have it or it's faulty. When My abs went faulty it used to kick in for no reason when I braked and made the car unsafe to drive. I removed the relevant fuse, Fuse 1 (20A) in the underbonnet fuse box, and had "Normal" brakes. (The car won't pass another test until it's fixed though.) I went to Citroen who did a diagnostic check on the system and discovered a faulty abs sensor. I replaced that and the car has been fine since (3yrs) They did nor charge me for the diagnostic check as it only took a moment. It's the only way to find out your problem I'm afraid.

 

Cheers. Hope this helps. :unsure:

Posted

Thanks again. I will wait for the first nice day and try again to take out the center part of the reservoir. Hopefully i will be successfull. I realy dont want to deatach the hoses because i am not sure if I would be able to reattach them properly.

 

I know how the abs functions. There abs is not working currently. I just dont know if the car has it at all. I will search for the part you described as soon as possible.

 

I will make pictures of the proccess of cleaning filters. Perhaps they will help someone once.

 

Best Regards to all.

Posted

Hi Darko,

If you find out that your pump is OK, then check the universal joint on the steering column. I have just got mine back from the pro and he replaced the pressure regulator and hydraulic pump, but the steering was still stiff. It turned out to be the aforementioned universal joint on the steering column that was causing the problem!

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