Bsi Virginisation

[Banky]

Hi all,

I am a new member joining today to belong to this prestigious citroen owners club.

I have a Citroen C3 2002 model. The old lad had done 95k miles. However, she is sitting at my garriage without being used due to BSI voltage spike caused by my foolishness. I plugged a tyre pump to the cigarette fuse inside the car. The light deems continuously when trying to start it but refused to start since then even when everything has been removed.

Citroen Dealer diagnoised internal fault within the ECU and asking for about 80% (over 1,150 pounds)the present worth of the car before they can fix it. Frustrated, recovered car back and sent ECU for checking. ECU was certified ok. Now, I read it that the non start problem is related to BSI. I did the simple reset but did not work.

I am therefore thinking of reprograming the BSI with the car ECU and immobiliser so that it can start. I want to buy any of Lexia 3 euipment on ebay. I managed to see a code within the ECU which suggest that previuos owner probably had similar problem in the past. BBA Reman said that the NSI may be virginised if they can not solve the solve. The problem is reprogram it with the car. Is this exercises worth doing at all? If yes, any assistance will be appreciated

[kfk]

To be honnest i havent heard of anyone giving a voltage spike to the BSI by using anything in the cigarette socket.....now i know that doesnt mean its inpossible, but i would doubt that it has caused yu your problems.

 

I would also suggest before you start having components tested that its worhgoing back to basics to see if its something more obvious/cheap thats at fault. I know you have taken it to a main dealer but to be honest that doenst always mean you have had a correct diagnosis.........it could be that someone has looked at it, cant see whats wrong with it and priced up the most expensive bit in the hope that either it fixes it, or you take the car away!

 

so going back to basics:

- Are all the Fuses ok within the BSI unit.....take them out one at a time and check them

- when you used the tyre pump did you swap a fuse from one slot to another because it blew?.......did you replace it?

- is the battery fully charged, have you tried another one or jump leads from another car?.... are you sure its not a battery problem?

- does the engine spin over on the starter motor when you try to start it or does it go 'clunk' and the lights go dim?

- apart from 'ECO MODE' on the dash is there any other message when putting the key in?......'KEY FAULT', IMMOB FAULT'?

- Does the Cigarette socket still work?

 

We would assume that your local dealer has checked these items.....but seeing as its your money your trying to save ,check them again.

 

As far as BBA are concermed i have dealt with them several times in the past and find them very good to deal with........However, i wasnt aware that they were able to check BSI.

 

If BBA are unable to find a faut with your unit and set the software back to as new, it could provide you with additional problems. One being that you may not be able to reprogram the BSI if the fault is still present on he car.

 

Hope some of that helps.......please post back and let us know what happens

 

Any one else with any suggestions?

 

 

[Banky]

Thanks KFK for your advice. I used the car for more than 1 year now and nothing of such has happened before.

 

While finding solution to this problem, I read somewhere in the Citroen C3 Haynes manual that BSI software could be corrupted if a consumer is used on the car without letting the car stabilised after starting. I guess I was so stupid to plug the tyre pump in the cigarette socket and put on the inner light as well. The inner light woke up the troubled BSI and whola! when I try to start the car with the tyre pump plug in the cigarette socket, there is a 'clunk' sound and the lights go dim as you said. The car refused to start since then. I tried to put a jumper to it from another car, still no live but ecomode did not show. Ecomode lighted up when the local garage put a diagnostic instrument on it and they could not fix. Then I took it to citroen dealer; reported internal fault within ECU asking for all my entire saving. I sent the ECU to ECUdoctor, it was reported ok.

I took the BSI out and checked all the fuse one by one. They came out clean. I checked the fuse under the bonnet beside the engine ECU, they are all pretty ok as well. I agreed with you on the dealer diagnosis. I have gone to confront the dealer that I was out of pocket with £91 (cost of diagnosis) for nothing because nothing wrong with my ECU. They offer 10% discount which is not too much of a discount to put the old lady back on the road; still requested £800.

 

However, before now my battery normally ran down within 3 - 4 days if the car is not used. But after a little charge, the car is back on the road.

 

"As per your question:

- Are all the Fuses ok within the BSI unit.....take them out one at a time and check them>>>>>>>CHECK OK

- when you used the tyre pump did you swap a fuse from one slot to another because it blew?.......did you replace it? >>>>>>NO FUSE BLOWN OR SWAP

- is the battery fully charged, have you tried another one or jump leads from another car?.... are you sure its not a battery problem?

....BATTERY IS FULLY CHARGED. I TRIED A JUMPER CABLE FROM ANOTHER CAR, STILL NO LIVE.

- does the engine spin over on the starter motor when you try to start it or does it go 'clunk' and the lights go dim?>>>>>>>IT WENT CLUNK AND LIGHT GO DIM

- apart from 'ECO MODE' on the dash is there any other message when putting the key in?......'key fault', Immob fault'?>>>>>>>NO OTHER FAULT SHOWN. THE CAR IS LOCKED WITH CENTRAL LOCKING SYSTEM WORKING.

- Does the Cigarette socket still work?>>>>>>>>>I WILL CHECK THAT TODAY "

 

I got a lexia 3 from ebay to try it on the car first. I have read a lot about BSI virginisation, a hell of a job to try. Engine may start but doors may not be locked, dashboard light may be permanently on and so on.

 

I intend to fix the BSI back and have it tested on the lexia 3 before virginisation. I will get back to the forum soon. ANy help again or experience with Lexia will equally be welcome. Thanks.

[kfk]

Just to confirm with you:

 

'When you turn the key the starter motor goes clunk and the lights go dim'.......and i assume the engine isnt turned by the starter motor?

[Banky]

Yes KFK that was what happen. Exactly the way you described it. Everything just went wonky as if a high voltage was drawn. The starter motor never turn the engine. Thanks

[kfk]

Before you go any further.........

 

........go find the starter motor.......find the small wire that feeds the solenoid and see if it has 12 volts when cranking the engine.

 

 

The starter motor wiring does not go through the BSI......if the starter motor isnt turning the engine over sort that out first

[Banky]

Ok. I will check that later today and get back to this forum. Thanks.

[kfk]

Back to basics again - Starter motor only goes clunk but doesnt turn engine:

 

- Check the engine will turn freely - can you tun the engine over using a spanner on the end of the crankshaft? (or with ignition OFF, select hight gear, release handbrake and push car back an forth half a wheel revolution.

- if the crankshaft pulley isnt turning, it maybe that there is engine damage causing the starter motor not to turn.

 

Assuming the engine turns as above - apply handbake and select neural gear.

 

Checking the Battery:

- 12 volts - its been on charge doesnt mean its good

- connect multimeter between a good engine earth and the positive terminal - does it read more than 12 volts

- turn the lights on - does it still read 12 volts

- try starting the car......with the key held right over does it read more than 9 - 10 volts... if its reading less either the battery has a fault or there is a bad earth.

 

Checking the starter motor connections using a multimeter or bulb and wire:

 

- The fat wire should have 12 volts on it when the key is any position......even wih the ignition off..

- The thin wire should have 12 volts on it when the key is held right over in the cranking position.

- The starter motor requires a good earth through the engine back to the battery if it is to work

- Trace FAT earth wires from battery to body and gearbox - remove and refit - tight doesnt mean its a good connection

- To give a quick temporary earth, connect black jump lead to negative on battery and other end to the engine casing.

 

Where do the wires come from?

- the fat wire comes from the back of the alternator which inturn is connected to battery.....so if no voltage at startermotor check connection at alternator

- The thin wire comes from the under bonnet fusebox which inturn comes from the ignition switch.....whilst it comes from the fuse box there isnt a fuse in that wire.

 

As you will see from above the starter motor has no dependency on the BSI or engine ECU. That doesnt mean that oe or both of them are not faulty but if the engine wont crank over you need to be checking the starter motor circuit first

 

In my opinion from the information you have given me either:

1, the engine is jammed and wont allow the starter to operate

2, the battery isnt holding sufficient charge to turn the starter motor

3 there is a bad earth which would stop the starter turning and probably affect operation of the engine ecu

4, there is a poor connection on the fat wire to the starter motor.

 

I am assuming that the clunk you are hearing is from the starter motor solenoid, which would mean the ignition switch and wire through the underbonnet fusebox to starter is probably good, i have also assumed that this isnt a sensodrive/automatic.

[argoose]

Hi both,

Read topic through, you said that your battery runs down in only a few days. Battery should take weeks to drain to the point it wont start the car. If the battery is so drained even a jump start may not work.

Have you put a new head unit in, it might need the two supply feeds changing round. easy to check, if the preset radio stations do not work then the radio is constantly on, draining your battery and putting you in eco mode.

The bad earth is another likely culprit. give them all a good squirt of wd40, or similar, any that look rusty, slacken off and give them a scrub with wire/toothbrush and extra squirt.

Also check battery terminals, give them a rub over with fine emery paper and a light coat of petroleum jelly.

Let us know how you get on

[Banky]

Hi All,

Thanks for the help. I fixed the BSI back this afternoon. Then, battery is down and have to be recharged again. Then I performed BSI resetting procedures. I heard the clicks as the BSI seems to be resetting itself . I check the starter motors cables, there is current (using the light bulb) but I am not sure of the voltage if it is up to 12v since I don't have a Voltmeter.

Then, I tried to start the car, there is a cracking sound from the motor and It appeared the engine turned but the car did not start. Then two attempts like this drew down the battery to a halt. Everything on the car work (central locking, lights, radio, etc). The trouble maker 12V and cigarette sockets worked perfectly as if nothing happened. I feel like pulling the damn thing out and throw it out of the car window. I just could not believe little thing like that could cause untold hardship. A great punishment. If I am lucky to get out of this, I will have them permanently refused or cellotaped.

 

I will be going out right now to see if I can get a new battery since it seems the battery is bad. I don't know precise time the battery was bought but I have used the car now for over a year after buying it. I will keep the forum informed of the update.

[Banky]

A quick update. Fixed a new battery from HAlford today. Car still refused to start. I hope to receive the LEXIA next week and see if I can update the BSI software without virginisation. or at worst clear all fault codes and see if that can removes the bridge between the ECU, BSI and immobiliser. 'Will post any update later.

[Banky]

I left the new battery in the car overnight, although the car did not start but there is no sigh of any drain unlike the old battery. Perhaps, my problem is compounded by bad battery. Still awaiting the Lexia.

[kfk]

I left the new battery in the car overnight, although the car did not start but there is no sigh of any drain unlike the old battery. Perhaps, my problem is compounded by bad battery. Still awaiting the Lexia.

 

I take it the engine turns over now?

[Banky]

Yes. The engine did turn over. It makes a small noise (uuuuuuuu) at the end but never start. Battery removal and waiting on lexia. thanks all.

[kfk]

you havent said in your posts if it is petrol/diesel/manual/automatic/sensodrive model?

[Banky]

you havent said in your posts if it is petrol/diesel/manual/automatic/sensodrive model?

 

Sorry, an omission. I think the car is driving me nut. she is 2002 model. Petrol engine, manual 1.4cc engine.

[Banky]

HI everybody.

 

I connected the lexia 3 to the car. Good software (Lexia 347). It is just amazing the kind of things the software can do. this is the result:

BSI -------Dialoque yes, No fault

Instrument panel-------Dialoque yes, No fault

Radio ------- - - (but the radio is working)

Switch module under the steering wheel............Dialoque yes, No fault

Airbag............Dialoque yes, No fault

Multifunction display..........Dialoque NO, Fault YES

I read the multifunction error and it displace: Permanent fault, No communication with radio

 

The ECU ECRAN not communicated. I guess it is the multifunction display ECU. Car still refused to start and ECU mode still display.

 

Apart from that everything still works fine after the diagnosis. The tool is very good. Bought from ebay but proved its usefulness.

 

Any help on the next line of action?

[kfk]

using lexia access engine ecu, go to parameters, find informatio that tells you if imobilizer has unlocked the ecu

[Banky]

It shows no fault in the immobiliser and engine ECU when I check. I am able to check the ECU parameters. However, it shows below (yellow) that "problem cause by another ECU". IS there any ECU that control the "Multifunction display" where the fault is reported because of non communication with radio. My radio is working but though the radio seems to have been changed by previous owner. But the car works with it.

[kfk]

Both the Radio and the Multifunction displays are considered to be ECU.

 

 

Whilst neither unit supply information to the engine ECU the radio does react to engine speed and increases the volume......something worth doing would be to remove the radio and the radio display panel ......unplug them from the harness and see if the car starts......had a picasso once where there was a coin on the circuit board in the CD player that caused the car not to start.

Something else that would be usefull to know......if you remove the coil and spark plugs......does it spark when you crank it over?

[Banky]

Thanks for the advice KFK. I unplogged both the radio and the multifunction display and the car still refused to start. However, I discovered that the number on the display unit is the same number picked up by the Lexia as faulty ECU. Even when I try to check up the engine ECU on the Lexia, it shows that it has no fautlt but the fault is in another ECU (ECU ECRAN). It might worth changing it and see if the car will start. I got the same match (number and model) on ebay. It is a used part taken out of c4. I don't know if there would be need for reprogramming. Any help will be appreciated.

[kfk]

Dont go buying a new display....as you have said.........it works!

 

 

The car will run without a display in it and isnt going to stop the car starting, whilst the lexia is saying the display is faulty, what it is actually saying is.....'i cant get the reading i expect for the instument panel, so i'll flag that part of the circuit up as faulty'.

 

From a diagnosis point of view it could be something a simple as a broken wire, an internal fault in the multifunction display or even the BSI faulty internally........but ignore it for the moment.

 

You didnt answer the other question i asked.........if you remove the spark plugs do you get a spark when trying to start it?

[Banky]

Dont go buying a new display....as you have said.........it works!

 

 

The car will run without a display in it and isnt going to stop the car starting, whilst the lexia is saying the display is faulty, what it is actually saying is.....'i cant get the reading i expect for the instument panel, so i'll flag that part of the circuit up as faulty'.

 

From a diagnosis point of view it could be something a simple as a broken wire, an internal fault in the multifunction display or even the BSI faulty internally........but ignore it for the moment.

 

You didnt answer the other question i asked.........if you remove the spark plugs do you get a spark when trying to start it?

 

Youmean I need to get spanner and take off all the plugs os some of them?

[kfk]

Yes!

 

Doesnt matter what petrol engine you have its going to need a Spark, Fuel and air supply.

 

 

So..............put the lexia away, and go back to basics.....lexia isnt helping you at the moment.

 

See if you have a spark....if it doesnt have a spark, but lexia has told you the computer is unlocked, maybe the coil/wiring needs checking out............if you have a spark we know that the injection ecu is unlocked....and you have confirmed what lexia is telling you!,

 

 

 

If you have a spark the next stage is to check if your fuel supply is good........tell me how you get on with the spark

[Banky]

Thanks. I will do just that and report back