Guest diyjoke Posted September 14, 2008 Posted September 14, 2008 Me again, not having a lot of luck am I? Still, fixed the errant calliper thanks to Coasline - couldn't have done it without, many thanks to all who contributed.Next problem: this was sort of intermittent before the calliper job and never anything like as bad but I can now push the brake pedal to the floor.Symptoms: handbrake on, push the brake pedal and initially firmish but gradually goes all the way to the floor. Handbrake off and the pedal easily goes all the way down. Driving (very cautiously and only for test purposes) and the pedal is soggy and little braking effect until pumped once, then able to stop the car. One hurried pump and then hit the brakes hard and the ABS does its stuff but the pedal then gradually goes all the way down with continued pressure. Prgogressive, slow braking is a problem because the brake pressure runs out of steam as the pedal reaches full travel. Pump it rapidly in succession and the pedal firms up but the brakes don't work (won't stop the car)Have bled the brakes manually and with a pressure bleed kit and fairly confident that it's not air in the normal circuit (could easily be wrong, again). What is all this about air in the ABS secondary circuit; does it give the symptoms outlined above. A colleague with another make and model and obviously a different forum found something about a master cylinder and seals gone, or inverted? Is checking replacing the seals/master cylinder a job a relatively easy one (if indeed ths is likely to be the cause)? Can anyone provide sufficiently idiot-proof instructions for a master cylinder overhaul or replacement? Oh, nearly forgot, not losing any brake fluid (or not in any noticable quatities).Desperately need to get my car going again and more importantly once going - get it to stop. Any help appreciated, Regards, Mac Quote
coastline taxis Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Me again, not having a lot of luck am I? Still, fixed the errant calliper thanks to Coasline - couldn't have done it without, many thanks to all who contributed.Next problem: this was sort of intermittent before the calliper job and never anything like as bad but I can now push the brake pedal to the floor.Symptoms: handbrake on, push the brake pedal and initially firmish but gradually goes all the way to the floor. Handbrake off and the pedal easily goes all the way down. Driving (very cautiously and only for test purposes) and the pedal is soggy and little braking effect until pumped once, then able to stop the car. One hurried pump and then hit the brakes hard and the ABS does its stuff but the pedal then gradually goes all the way down with continued pressure. Prgogressive, slow braking is a problem because the brake pressure runs out of steam as the pedal reaches full travel. Pump it rapidly in succession and the pedal firms up but the brakes don't work (won't stop the car)Have bled the brakes manually and with a pressure bleed kit and fairly confident that it's not air in the normal circuit (could easily be wrong, again). What is all this about air in the ABS secondary circuit; does it give the symptoms outlined above. A colleague with another make and model and obviously a different forum found something about a master cylinder and seals gone, or inverted? Is checking replacing the seals/master cylinder a job a relatively easy one (if indeed ths is likely to be the cause)? Can anyone provide sufficiently idiot-proof instructions for a master cylinder overhaul or replacement? Oh, nearly forgot, not losing any brake fluid (or not in any noticable quatities).Desperately need to get my car going again and more importantly once going - get it to stop. Any help appreciated, Regards, MacHello got to go to work so ill ask quickly1 was the pedal firm b4 you split the rear caliper2 what bleed sequence are using3 what dot brake fluid are you using4 when was fluid last changed as it has a life spanalso let the car stand for a bit as with all the pumping the fluid will become unstable and have tiny air bubbles in it we normally leave them overnightcheers Quote
Guest diyjoke Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 [quote name='coastline taxis' post='34295' date='Sep 15 2008, 07:30 AM']Hello got to go to work so ill ask quickly 1 was the pedal firm b4 you split the rear caliper - yes, but could have been better. I could squash the pedal almost to the floor but there was a point it would stop before the bottom stop. Now, whatever the circumstances (excepting repeated, rapid pumping) that the pedal just drifts to the floor without too much effort. Park on a hill, pump the brake and it holds, the pedal then continues to floor and eventually the brakes come off. 2 what bleed sequence are using - front off-side, front near-side, rear off-side, rear near side. 3 what dot brake fluid are you using - DOT 4 4 when was fluid last changed as it has a life span - has effectively been changed with all the messing about (maybe could do with a bit more of a bleed to the back brakes) also let the car stand for a bit as with all the pumping the fluid will become unstable and have tiny air bubbles in it we normally leave them overnight - has had an overnight rest on more than one occasion. cheers[/quote] See specific replies above. What's also niggling me is not just the fact that there's no braking until the pedal has been pumped at least once, preferably twice but if you continue to pump then the pedal goes hard mid-travel but at this point the brakes don't work. Curious. Thanks for your assistance again. Kind regards, Mac Quote
coastline taxis Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 See specific replies above. What's also niggling me is not just the fact that there's no braking until the pedal has been pumped at least once, preferably twice but if you continue to pump then the pedal goes hard mid-travel but at this point the brakes don't work. Curious.Thanks for your assistance again.Kind regards, MacHi Are you doing this with the engine running or not Quote
Guest diyjoke Posted September 15, 2008 Posted September 15, 2008 Hi Are you doing this with the engine running or notHello,similar if not identical results - I'll check to confirm this but if I go and sit in the car with the engine off, hang on I'll check it out now. Same results. But without the car actually moving difficult to say if the brakes would actually hold the car to any degree once the pedal firmed up. Coincidentally or not (trying to give as much information as possible as it might be of some significance), the rear off-side end of things is making some weird clicking sort of sounds - this is the opposite side to the one I split and ended up cleaning (chipping off) the corrosion on the arm and then used emery cloth on a steel bench to get it somewhere near flat by abrading off the pits (craters) left from the corrosion. When I did use the pressure bleed I was disappointed with the pathetic dribble from the rear brakes but then the last time I did brakes on a Citroen it was a Xantia and just wedged the pedal, engine running and nervously cracked the bleed nipple whilst the LHM belted out.If you need any more information please ask, and thanks for the interest.Regards,Mac Quote
coastline taxis Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 Hello,similar if not identical results - I'll check to confirm this but if I go and sit in the car with the engine off, hang on I'll check it out now. Same results. But without the car actually moving difficult to say if the brakes would actually hold the car to any degree once the pedal firmed up. Coincidentally or not (trying to give as much information as possible as it might be of some significance), the rear off-side end of things is making some weird clicking sort of sounds - this is the opposite side to the one I split and ended up cleaning (chipping off) the corrosion on the arm and then used emery cloth on a steel bench to get it somewhere near flat by abrading off the pits (craters) left from the corrosion. When I did use the pressure bleed I was disappointed with the pathetic dribble from the rear brakes but then the last time I did brakes on a Citroen it was a Xantia and just wedged the pedal, engine running and nervously cracked the bleed nipple whilst the LHM belted out.If you need any more information please ask, and thanks for the interest.Regards,Mactest 1If the pedal is going hard and not working the brakes then it is showing signs of the servo. Go to the brake resorvoir and behind it there looks like a big black cirlcle as you look at it theres a pipe on the bottom left. Unplug the pipe its just pushed in with a bit rubber to seal it. now try the brakes and see if theres any difference also take the pipe of at both ends and check for blockages and leakstest 2with the engine running pump the pedal up hard keep the pressure on the switch the engine of and lets know what the brake pedal does Quote
Guest diyjoke Posted September 16, 2008 Posted September 16, 2008 test 1If the pedal is going hard and not working the brakes then it is showing signs of the servo. Go to the brake resorvoir and behind it there looks like a big black cirlcle as you look at it theres a pipe on the bottom left. Unplug the pipe its just pushed in with a bit rubber to seal it. now try the brakes and see if theres any difference also take the pipe of at both ends and check for blockages and leakstest 2with the engine running pump the pedal up hard keep the pressure on the switch the engine of and lets know what the brake pedal doesTEST 1Couldn't even get the pedal to go hard tonight. Would firm up with repeated pumping but each time with continued applied pressure it would continue to the floor. As for the servo: did something like insomuch as I managed to get the pipes (3 off) that connect to the one plug type thing going into the servo. Tried the brakes, felt the same through the pedal but wouldn't stop the car; seems like the servo is doing its stuff. Couldn't get the individual pipes off; larger one could see under the air intake (intercooler?) pipe but couldn't disconnect it and couldn't find the ends of the smaller two. All looked good but a blow down the released end didn't prove anything as it was open-ended at the point I couldn't release.TEST 2As previous, couldn't get the pedal to go hard, no amount of pumping (still no fluid loss) but lots of the previously mentioned creaking and cracking from the rear. Tried bleeding the brakes again and after completing the front this is when I got to the rear disc that I hadn't yet changed and saw the all too common problem - the caliper was rubbing on the disc. Couldn't leave it in this condition, didn't have any brake cleaner so improvised with solvent cleaner and penetrating fluid. Certainly made the bolts move a bit easier but unable to remove them from the caliper and hoping for the best when attempting to refit - please, no stripped threads. Caliper was so badly corroded that I had to remove it completely which gave me the opportunity to try and free the bolts up a bit more with a heavy soft mallett and an electric impact driver. Still couldn't get the bolts out and managed to drift them slighly beneath the level of the face of the caliper to enable me to emery off the very badly corroded face (probably took in excess of 0.5mm off). Cleaned up the other end at the hub, cup of tea and stock up on rabbit's feet ready for the attempted refit.So, basically test 1 fairly conclusive - there doesn't appear to be a problem with the servo. Test 2, unable to complete as the pedal just would not go hard. Tried it anyway and there was no difference to the rate of fall of pedal when switching the engine off as just doing the same thing without the engine running in the first place.I'll attempt to refit the calliper, disc and pads then bleed the brakes from scratch and feedback the results. Thanks for your continued interest, advice and patience.Kind regards, Mac Quote
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