ancell Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Hi all had a test drive in the grand 7 seater HDi 115 Airdream with 117 HP diesel engine.Mightily impressed.I expected the old nodding duck French road holding of my previous new grand 7 seater 2 litre diesel of 6 years ago.What a revelation better than my choppy 3 years with me Ford Galaxy- light years better than my old citroen .The cabin plastics are way better than my previous Citroen they look like they will last my required time 3 years and 60000 miles.Quieter than the Ford at 70 plus MPH on the motorway. Now to my question I tow a 1480 kilo caravan the old 2 litre diesel was adequate. Will the 117 HP diesel be ok I am quite happy with the paddleshift g/box since its a lease vehicle. Would I be better getting the new 2 litre BlueHDi diesel with the much reduced MPG? Quote
paul.h Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Welcome to the forum. The following assumes your caravan weight of 1480 kg is its MTPLM and its MIRO is a lot less. If you look in the car handbook you will find the 117 bhp kerb weight is too low, about 1390 kg including 75 kg for the driver and a towing limit of 800 kg for the manual or about 1200 kg for the airdream.The 150 bhp kerb weight is about 1500 kg inc driver and max tow 1400 kg for the manual and kerb 1550 kg and max tow 1300 kg for the auto version. The sales brochures give higher towing weights but that is at the expense of not putting any weight in the car. So the car would not be of any use to pull your caravan with either engine. For a Citroen heavy enough to pull your caravan you need to consider a C5. But if you want to stay at the often suggested 85% limit (100 x caravan/car kerb inc driver)you should be looking at a kerb weight of 1740 kg which is above a C5. If your experience of towing is good enough for up to 100% then you need a kerb weight of at least 1480 kg but the heavier the car the more stable it will be. An option is to not put any weight in the caravan so it is at its MIRO which is likely well below 1400 kg but the car should still be above the caravans MTPLM of 1480 kg. The handbooks can be seen on the service.citroen site, documentation de bord, select language then the car http://service.citroen.com/ddb/ Quote
paul.h Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 Just had another look at the weights in the latest sales brochure on Citroen's site. Some of these seem to be wrong since they are showing a mass in service of 200 to 300 kg above the kerb weight - when the mass in service should be the kerb weight plus 75 kg for the driver. This has happened for all the engines except one. So be wary of using these values if you decide to get a C4, instead look at the V5C document and the handbook. Quote
ancell Posted March 10, 2014 Author Posted March 10, 2014 Thanks for information I have the handbook for the new picasso grand it gives the following information HDi115 Airdream kerb weight 1320mass in service 1610mass laden weight 2150max braked towing weight 1500 Blue HDi150 2 litre kerb weight 1430mass in service 1705mass laden weight 2250max braked towing weight 1700 Autocars test vehicle was 255 kilos overweight delivered so well up weight wise 27th November 2013 Quote
paul.h Posted March 10, 2014 Posted March 10, 2014 The numbers you have given look like the ones in the sales brochure and not the ones in the car handbook for vehicles from 1/6/2013 which can be seen from the service.citroen link. The towed weights I have given are stated as being on a 10 or 12% gradient. The higher values you have given are noted as possible with load transfer from the vehicle (ie only the driver in the car) but it is noted the vehicle may not be stable (it may also not go up a hill). The handbook wording uses unladen weight / kerb weight / gross vehicle weight / gross train weight / braked trailer weight on a 10 or 12% gradient / braked trailer with load transfer within the gross train weight. It has the kerb weight as including the 75 kg driver and is this amount above the unladen weight. It does not use the term mass in service and these weights you have for this do not appear. If you use the gross train weight (about 3300 / 3600 kg for the 115 / 150 bhp) and subtract the gross vehicle weight (using your max laden weight), you will see the max trailer weights with a full car as about 1200 / 1400 kg. With the information given in the handbook I have seen, I still can not recommend the car as being suitable for your caravan. There are other caravanners beside myself on this forum and I am sure they will add to this discussion. Quote
ancell Posted March 11, 2014 Author Posted March 11, 2014 I am getting the vehicle under the motability scheme so I have to get authority to tow from them.In a few days I am going to print this thread and submit it to he citroen dealer.Motability will not authorise an unsuitable vehicle. The kerb weight of my present tow car the Ford Galaxy is 1803 kilos quite a difference. Quote
paul.h Posted March 11, 2014 Posted March 11, 2014 I have been caravanning for 14 years and in that time towed our first caravan MIRO 1000 kg, MTPLM 1300 kg but about 1100 kg as towed and our latest one is MIRO 1330 kg, MTPLM 1499 kg but about about 1330 kg towed (MIRO now includes gas bootles and water in the tanks which we remove/drain when towing). The cars used for the first caravan were Saab 900 2.0 petrol, Saab 9000 2.0 turbo petrol, Saab 9-5 2.3 turbo petrol, Citroens Xsara Picasso 2.0 hdi and C5 hatchback 2.2 hdi. The latest caravan was towed with the first C5 and now a C5 estate 2.2 hdi. Of these the Picasso was the worst for towing, only tried it once since it was probably too light (kerb 1300 kg) and the caravan seemed to be controlling the car all the time. The C5s with the self levelling hydractive suspension are an order of magnitude better for towing. The first one (kerb 1485 kg not inc driver) could pull the first caravan all day with no bother but when I got the second heavier caravan it was not as stable so we changed the car for the estate (kerb 1610 kg not inc driver). Before changing the car I did try to make it heavier by adding weight to it but it was a temporary solution . The estate again is very stable and will pull the heavier caravan all day. So from my experience if the car kerb weight (not inc driver) is 200 to 300 kg heavier than the caravan towed weight it has been stable. If you change from your Galaxy to the 150 bhp C4 you would go from the car kerb weight being 320 kg heavier than the caravan to a car kerb weight 50 kg less than the caravan - you would definitely notice the difference and possibly may not dare to tow it. With the 115 bhp C4 the car would be 160 kg less than the caravan (using the weights not inc the driver). Quote
paul.h Posted March 29, 2014 Posted March 29, 2014 Ancell has not been back to finish off this topic but he posted something similar on the caravan talk forum. Despite advice here and on the caravan forum against the C4 as being too light, he decided to go for a 2.0 hdi auto 150 bhp grand C4 Picasso. From the other forum, delivery will be around now so hopefully we may get some feedback and what the actual mass in service weight is on the V5C, since he was hoping it would be quite high - not believing the figures in the brochure and handbook.Caravan Talk link http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/92542-can-i-tow-1500-kilos-with-1430-kilo-kerb-weight-mpv/page-5 Quote
paul.h Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 In case somebody else is thinking of this car for towing, the weights from the 1/6/2013 handbook for the C4 grand Picasso 7 seat (model 3A in the tables) 150 bhp 2.0 hdi 6 speed electronic gears (auto) are:- unladen weight 1476 kg- kerb weight inc 75 kg for driver 1551 kg (this is the mass in service as seen on the V5C)- gross vehicle weight 2280 kg- gross train weight 3580 kg- braked trailer on a 10 to 12% gradient within GTW 1300 kg- braked trailer with load transfer from the vehicle within GTW 1600 kg (ie car load is reduced by 300 kg) but it does say this may have an adverse effect on roadholding.- recommended nose weight 70 kg. On the Caravan Talk forum, Ancell has given his caravan MTPLM as 1500 kg, hence you can see why it has not been recommended that the C4 Picasso is suitable for him. Quote
ancell Posted April 14, 2014 Author Posted April 14, 2014 No build date yet I am expecting delivery in June and will proceed to the weigh bridge where I expect it to be overweight. Just contemplating whether to shell out £400[fitted] for the removable tow ball/bar[Witter] or save money on the fixed. The fixed on my Ford Galaxy is a constant source of irritation since the parking sensors "see" the tow ball requiring me to switch them off on the dash.It does not happen every time I reverse but enough to render the sensors pretty ineffective.Must say I am looking forward to the reversing camera at least that will not beep! Quote
paul.h Posted April 23, 2014 Posted April 23, 2014 The rear parking sensors on our C5 estate sometimes would see the fixed towball. By lowering the 13 pin socket bracket and also adjusting the position slightly of the towball cover this has been stopped. Quote
ancell Posted June 9, 2014 Author Posted June 9, 2014 I took delivery of my 150BHP Picasso C4 Grand on Tuesday put a few hundred miles on it before towing my Swift Challenger 540 150 miles from Livingston to Glenbarr over the Rest and be Thankful down the A83 via Tarbert. To describe the tow as testing every aspect would be accurate in reasonable conditions.The conditions were far from reasonable strong sunshine torrential cloudbursts and very gusty conditions. I elected to use manual control via the much improved paddle shift gear change which I was assured was NOT an option due to the 150 BHP!This resulted in an average of 29MPG over the tow. There were no problems during the trip the car handled the rain and wind without fuss.The maximum downforce is 70K I balanced the van at 60K with no "nodding" taking place.Mostly in 4th gear but travelled at 60MPH on the M8 thought I might have trouble on the Erskine bridge with gusts but only problem was negotiating the single carriageway roadworks! The car is fitted with a removable tow ball which is "seen" by the sensors when reversing so fixed tow bars could be a problem.The reversing camera picks up the tow ball so hitching up will be a doddle when the car is a bit older. I am not risking the days old rear bumper-yet!You must be careful fitting your tow mirrors or you could get a big bill!The folding wing mirrors cannot be disabled by the user Citroen must do it-according to the manual-which took me 2 hours to get through!Sadly you are not going to be able to drive this car and get its full potential without reading the manual.Unless you a 12 year old school boy. Quote
paul.h Posted June 15, 2014 Posted June 15, 2014 Thankyou for continuing this post and I am pleased your car tows ok. When changing cars there are always doubts until you have tried it. If you do bother to use a weighbridge please could you put the weight on here. Quote
ancell Posted June 16, 2014 Author Posted June 16, 2014 I do intend to weigh the Picasso but time pressure to get away to the west coast prevented that.I will post the weight on my return in a couple of weeks. Now up to 900 miles still getting to grips with the cars software.All main functions-gear changing-cruise control-radio-media-navigation etc can be operated from the steering wheel.Sounds simple but in practice fiddly and worse-distracting!The functions can be run more simply off the big touch screen for the sat nav and rear camera only you must take your eyes off the road! The gearbox is a "cleverer" box than first Picasso and my recent Ford Galaxy EG on downhill slopes it senses the slope and unlike the former stays in 4th gear thereby providing downhill engine braking.The pesky previous boxes would change up denying me engine braking! Remember if you have a removable tow bar do not carry it in the car its a hefty bit of iron-leave it in the caravan or your garage when not in use.Remember to remove it when not in use my fitter told me failure to follow this practice results firstly in a lock which rusts solid followed by the removable bar being impossible to remove. Its a very easy car to operate on the very demanding west coast passing place roads fuel economy is way up on my Ford Galaxy 50% better towing the same caravan! My only moan is a stowage area is provided in the tailgate for a breakdown triangle-BUT-its EMPTY!! Come on Citroen £25000 car surely there is enough money in the kitty to supply a plastic triangle!!I am stowing my 15 year old Audi triangle supplied with my old Audi 80. Quote
ancell Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 Just been to the public weighbridge and the car weight is 1660 Kilos including a full tank of diesel that's 57 litres weight approx. 57 kilos. Add two people 150 kilos plus all the usual travelling stuff and I will be well in the 80% rule-as long as the awning goes in the car. And we do not overload the caravan. The caravan nose weight is 100 kilos and the Picasso maximum is 70 kilos but at legal speeds in gusty winds this has not been a problem. Off to Findhorn Bay for a fortnight this weekend that's a 3 hour tow up the A9 just hope its a quiet one unlike last years explosive caravan tyre decompression! Quote
paul.h Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 This gives a mass in service then of about 1710 kg (I am not sure how much diesel it is supposed to include) if 20 kg is allowed for the towbar and makes a bit of a mockery of all the numbers in the brochures and handbook. What value does it have on the V5C ? Quote
ancell Posted June 30, 2014 Author Posted June 30, 2014 As I predicted the real weight is 200 kilos greater than the claimed weight.I do not have a V5C as the car is owned by motability.As you say the hand book numbers are not reliable but Renault Vauxhall to name just two others have the same weight variation problems. Quote
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