How Many 1.6I Stop/start Sensodrives Are There

[charentejohn]

I know there is at least one as I bought it a few days ago, I hope, here in france.  They are doing the paperwork and expected in a week or so.

Just checking this is possible as I can't find it in the equivalent of the Parkers guide here, perhaps so few sold not worth pricing up.

From a main dealer a 2006 model which is just what I wanted but this is a stop start version.  When I went to look at it I asked if the 1.6 bit was a mistake but apparently not.  

 

Just curious if there were many about, I assume from this that at one time you could order a stop start for 1.4 or 1.6 but 1.6 version not popular.  I did see a review on Carsurvey for Ireland where someone reviewed one so there must be another. 

 

I guess for parts buying just a 1.6 senso but when it comes to starter/alternator it uses the same one as the 1.4?

  

[Porsche430]

I used to work in a main dealer for Citroen UK and worked on very few C3 with the SensoDrive gearbox. Didn't sell well as, generally, the gearbox was horrific to drive. The full Auto gearbox was popular however.

[charentejohn]

Sorry to disagree but give me a sensodrive anytime, I know prople don't like them but anything is better than an AL4. 

In your time did you seen a 1.6 Stop start though ?

[Porsche430]

Personally, i'd avoid owning any piloted manual gearbox from any manufacturer. Generally, they ruin the driving experience for me. The new C4 Picasso which is a lovely car to drive with a full Auto or manual is ruined with a piloted manual gearbox. In Ford's, it's simply to slightly modified wiper motors that change gear for you! Wiper motors aren't very good at being wiper motors never mind changing gears!

 

As for S&S engines, I'd couldn't say for sure how many I seen. I'm familiar with them and know they exist.

[charentejohn]

Like I say I am the opposite and prefer these, just a matter of getting used to them as tyhey are different to an auto.
I have fought the corner of sensodrive generally but I know lots of people have problems with them, but I am not one of them.  Personal choice. 

 

Sill like to hear from anyone who has seen a 1.6 stop start though rather than a senso debate. 

[paul.h]

In a January 2006 Citroen C3 UK brochure it has the stop & start listed only against the 1.4i petrol 16v 90 bhp sensodrive SX. It is not listed against any other engines. There is a 1.6i petrol 16v 110 bhp sensodrive exclusive but stop & start is not shown. Apart from these 2 there are no other sensodrive models. The 1.4 with stop & start is the only one with rear parking sensors as standard but can be an option on the exclusive models (but the exclusives are only 1.6i 16v 110 bhp sensodrive and 1.6 hdi 16v 92 bhp).

 

Handbooks from 10/2007 for the C3 can be seen on the service.citroen site and in the UK and French versions it only has the stop & start against the 1.4i engine. http://service.citroen.com/ddb/

 

So, it may be possible the car you are getting was not available in the UK. It makes sense it only being on the smaller engine since its aim is to reduce fuel consumption. Compared to the none stop & start 1.4i 90 bhp engine it increases official fuel economy urban from 37.2 to 40.9 mpg, extra urban 56.5 to 57.6 and combined 47.1 to 49.6 with CO2 reducing from 143 to 135 g/km.

 

I would think the battery and alternator in a stop & start car are likely to be different to ones in a car without this feature and probably will have a higher power output/capacity.

[charentejohn]

Thanks, I did notice the stop starts were sensodrive only, french list is here http://www.lacentrale.fr/cote-voitures-citroen-c3--2006-.html

I assume you could order one but few to none did ?  I am not bothered about stop start as such as pretty open roads here so not of much value, that said it is ok once you are used to it and confident it will start instantly. 

I found the starter alternator online here and it is 150A, I assume that is to ensure plenty of battery charge and to turn the engine.  The drivebelt is normal but these have an extra spring on the tensioner roller which I guess is to add extra tension to the belt when starting. 

 

It must be real as garages here are legally obiged to inform a buyer of any modifications even down to just replacing gearboxes etc.  I think this also applie to private sales but am not sure.  So basically the garage said it is a 1.6 stop start and they didn't mention anything not working so all must be well as penalities for not informing can be severe.

When I went to look at it the first thing I said was I assumed it was a misprint as it must be a 1.4 but he assured me it is 1.6.  Once I get a vin number there is someone who says they can find full details, even to colours etc so hopefully that will show what it is.   

 

You know what it is like, you buy a car and find it is a bit of a one off and you need specialist bits, I assume the only difference here is the alternator has to turn over a 1.6 engine instead of a 1.4.  Just worried I will need the 180A version which noby has :)

[paul.h]

If you have the VIN (VIS) you can see the car details yourself on the service.citroen site in the Characteristics section of the parts diagrams. You will need to register as another professional and a member of the Citroen Owners Club http://service.citroen.com/pages/index.jsp

 You can select any language and do not need to use French. This is a free service. If you can see the car now without having to wait until you get it, the VIN can be obtained by looking at the bottoom of the windscreen on the outside so you could check the car is being sold with the correct description. Also you can look at the parts to see if there is any difference between the various models.

 

In the UK garages are also meant to correctly describe the cars, but they can make mistakes. A couple of years ago we were looking to buy a C3 with the 1.4vti 95 bhp engine. One Citroen dealer tried to convince me a 75 bhp one was the 95, despite me pointing out the cam cover was not wide enough for 2 camshafts and the engine code in the VIN was for the 75 engine. Their response was engines are getting narrower these days and they had checked a phone app using the car number plate so I must be wrong - we went elsewhere. They had more than 1 C3 being wrongly advertised.

[charentejohn]

I can't get the Vin until sometime next week when the new logbook should arrive but will take a look then.  I will post the details once I know them.

Somebody in Ireland had one http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/citroen/c3/2005/ so maybe they do exist :) 

 

Sometimes they mess up in the ads here too, been some great ones.  Often says Auto but is manual, I think as A is before M it says Automatic on the ad setup page and stays there if you don't change it.   Same with bhp rating etc.  Doesen't help to sell the car though as you think, if they can't be bothered to do that properly why should I want to see it. 

[paul.h]

The stop & start car batteries are different to standard ones - see this one on the eurocarparts site and are designed for a lot of use, but cost more http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Citroen_C3_1.4_2006/p/car-parts/car-electrics-and-car-lighting/electrical/car-battery/?444779101&1&e5d3c2b709a46f53cea42f4cef8f422b42564f2a&000020

 

There may also be a second battery needed since the Citroen parts diagrams list a 40 amp battery 5600QZ as well as the 400 amp battery 5600QY.

[charentejohn]

I can't figure out what the second battery is, keeps being mentioned as the one on the gearbox but not shown anywhere.  They may just mean a computer type small round battery on the gearbox ECU ?

The higher powered stop start should help the sensodrive box anyway as they don't like weak batteries, takes some power to turn the actuator motors so a volt drop can upset the computers.   My wife's car is due a new battery soon I think, always starts instantly but hesitated a few times in very cold conditions.  First sign of distress and best to change it I think. 

[paul.h]

The second battery can be seen here http://www.ebay.com.sg/itm/New-Genuine-Citroen-C2-C3-C3-II-12V-40A-Start-Stop-Battery-5600QZ-1607440980-/131133982937

[charentejohn]

Thanks, now I know it exists I managed to find where it is.  Apparently under the passenger seat, latest question is why ?

Can't seem to find what it is used for, if nobody knows I will ask at my local garage when next there as they will know.

Maybe for emergencies if main battery dies to allow gearbox to monouvre itself into neutral ?  Or just to boost the restart if necessary ?

[Porsche430]

S&S cars have up-rated batteries, heavy duty starter motors and several other heavy duty parts to deal with potential constant staring and stopping. A intersting fact many over look is the S&S system will not operate if you have the cabin fan/heater operating, air conditioning and other luxuries. Also, if the battery goes below I think 12V because the engine isn't running, it was automatically start the engine. Usually, the only time a fault become aparrent with the stop start is if it doesn't operate at all. Otherwise it is normal operating conditions

[paul.h]

It makes you think with the list of things that prevent the s&s working so the battery does not go flat, whether it will actually stop and make any fuel savings. Also if there are higher lifetime maintenance costs due to more expensive parts, it could cost the car owner more than a none s&s car. However, in the official economy tests it will give a fuel saving that in the UK allows the car to have a lower car tax and Citroen to achieve its environmental commitments to avoid possible European fines.

[Porsche430]

Personally, I think it has more to do with emission regulations and reducing road tax costs for customers. The fuel savings are very minimal at best from what I have experienced. Recently, I drove a brand new C1 with a 1.2 petrol engine with S&S. I think it is unnecessary.

[paul.h]

A bit like not providing a spare wheel, the weight saving helps the emissions but first time there is a puncture any money savings are lost by needing a tow truck. In Citroens price list for new cars the spare wheel option is £75 but if you get one after the car has been built/supplied it is about £200 for a wheel/tyre/jack/wheel brace/plastic nut cover removal tool/box to hold them.

[Porsche430]

I hear you there! False economy I think it is called. :)

[charentejohn]

On the 1.6l stop start front no problem, it is a 1.4l like all the others.   Just a misprint in the ad, don't you just love it.  That said the garage gave excellent service so no complaints, I preferred a 1.4 anyway.

 

On the stop start, I believe it is a help in town as regards fuel and wear and tear on the engine.   Better to sit with the engine off for 5 mins if not moving ?

For me personally little or no difference as most driving is on open roads, brought the car back today covering 60+ miles.  I only had to stop 3 times at junctions/roundabouts. 

 

A clever system and quiet to start as it is belt driven, no metal cogs.   Here is another thought to consider, clever restart apparently stops the engine just before firing stroke on cylinders 1 or 4.  When it restarts it just needs a nudge from the starter and bang goes the spark plug and off it goes.

I think this may be less stressful at starting the engine ? but not sure.   All computer controlled.

 

The starter/alternator is (in France) about £250  and starter and alternator combined about £140 so a fair difference, but then again should last a while.  Batteries are slightly more as more powerful.

It can be turned off easily, it will work as long as the battery is charged but if A/c etc is on and draining the battery it will start the engine again. 

 

Given a choice for here I would not be bothered really but would like it if I lived in london for example.  I don't mind as my wife's car is the same so we can, hopefully never required though, exchange parts.  For example if I need a new starter alternator I will then have a spare to have recondidtioned so cheap if the other car needs one.  Same for sensodrive parts.