New Front Brakes But Just Had A Frightening Experience

[RichCliff]

I had both front discs and pads replaced around 4 weeks ago but haven't driven the car much due to another problem (Wheel bearings needing replacing also).

 

I noticed a week after the replacement of the front brakes that they smelled a little (noticed it inside the car driving) but i thought this was pretty normal (no idea).....

 

Today, up on Exmoor with the windy and up/down road we noticed the front brakes smelling quite a lot and i pulled over and knelt down to have a look. The wheel rims were very hot and there was an awful smell coming from them. Being in the middle of nowhere i had no choice to carry on....

Got to Porlock Hill, an extremely steep gradient and down near the bottom the smell was unbelievable but then suddenly i found my car wasn't stopping even with my foot down on the brake pedal as far as it could go.

Some parked cars were coming up with oncoming traffic and i couldn't stop..... I had to swerve around these and took me 200m to actually manage to stop at the bottom of the hill.

The brakes felt soft and felt like i had not enough pressure under my foot to stop the bloody car. Got out and the wheels were extremely hot and smelling bad of burning.

 

I had these replaced by ATS (See wheel bearing thread "Loud humming noise" for details). They did say my back brakes need replacing within the next 6 months or so also.

 

Question is.....

Do newly replaced brake pads/discs smell and get very hot (due to self setting calipers?)

What the hell just happened because it frightened me to death having my wife and daughter in the car going down one of the steepest hills in England).

 

The car is becoming out of control - cost wise - now. I simply cannot afford to have all these things happening at once. 

 

[paul.h]

You need to go back to ATS for this looking at, they may have not done the job properly but the following are my thoughts. I would even suggest they pay for a Citroen garage to have a look. You could look on here at the topic on the front brakes to see how the job should be done for your information since the handbrake cable has to be replaced in the correct order http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/7552-replacing-front-brake-pads-c5-to-2008/.

 

New brake pads/discs need bedding in and this can take a few days of normal use before normal braking resumes, possibly 100 miles or so. Up to then they will not be as effective so care has to be taken - ATS should have warned you about this.

 

It appears though as if they have been overheating (possibly seized caliper pistons or handbrake not adjusted correctly) and maybe caused the brake fluid to boil. When was the fluid last changed, it should be every 2 years since it gradually absorbs water and lowers its boiling point ? If it does boil, the brakes will not work as instead of the pedal compressing liquid it has to compress steam which will be as if they are full of air.

 

Other thoughts:

- I would also wonder if there is gease on the pads, possibly if the discs were not fully degreased before fitting or by careless fitting since a bit of copper grease is normally applied just to the edge of the pad backing plates where they contact the caliper.

- maybe air has got in the calipers when the pads were installed.

- the caliper pistons may be a bit seized or the handbrake not correctly adjusted (which I remember was an original problem to be sorted).

- if the pads and discs are not original Citroen parts and cheap copy ones have been used they may not work well - but the price you initially quoted was similar to Citroen parts.

- brakes do not normally smell but a while ago whilst waiting for a bus at the bottom of the Honister pass (a long very steep hill in the Lake District) I noticed many vehicles had smelly brakes after coming down.

[RichCliff]

Hi Paul,

 

I was not told about bedding in, and knew nothing about this until i literally just found it on the net before reading your reply. I have been driving for a few weeks but only to work and back (16 miles a day involving 8 miles of dual carriageway and 2 miles of country roads with lots of braking each way).

Today, as the wheel bearing on the drivers front has just been replaced, we went for a family day out.

 

I noticed the brakes smelling throughout the few weeks of minimal driving (as above) and today, slowing down from 60 to a roundabout, noticed the smell then too coming inside and we could all smell it.

 

I had not noticed any issues braking until getting down to the bottom of the hill. No matter how much i pressed on the brake pedal, it was slowing but not enough to actually stop. I got to around 10mph and it just carried on going until finally coming to a flatter gradient and it stopped.

 

I've just had another garage do my front driver side wheel bearing. Could this have affected the brakes as the caliper needs to be taken off i think?

[paul.h]

Your brakes will have been well bedded in with your work travelling of maybe 300 miles so that can be forgotten about.

 

For the wheel bearing, the caliper would just have been unbolted from the swivel hub so this should not have resulted in any air getting in. Whether the fitter got any grease on the disc could possibly be checked but it would just be on the one disc so might be indicated by the car pulling to one side when braking.

 

I think the problem of the brakes smelling is not normal and may be due to overheating and likely the caliper pistons are seized or the handbrake not working working properly. Or there could be a problem with a hose having internal damage so the piston is not released when the pedal is lifted.

 

Do you know when the brake fluid was last changed ? A neighbour had an Astra that had a known problem of rain getting in to the brake fluid reservoir and his brakes failed (pedal went to the floor) when trying to stop at a roundabout. As the amount of water increased the fluid boiling point reduced so it could boil.

[RichCliff]

I have no idea when the brake fluid was last changed, it hasn't since i've had the car for 4 years but I shall get this done ASAP. They only topped it up during the service recently.

I've done the hill numerous times before the brakes were replaced and have had no problems. 

I also felt the rear wheels, they were 'warm' but the front wheels were actually so hot i couldn't place my finger on them for more than 2-3 seconds. I hope now that this much heat has no melted the new bearing grease as surely that would be a factor also. As i felt the hub nut and it was very hot.

[paul.h]

Our Citroen dealer charges £40 to change the brake fluid but wherever you go, make sure it is bled through all 4 brake calipers and the clutch slave cylinder and not just by sucking some out of the reservoir and putting fresh in. I would explain the reason for needing to change it and they should make sure it is done properly. If it was only topped up at a service they should at least as a minimum test the fluid in there but the Citroen maintenance and warranty guide states it should be changed every 2 years and this is normal practice.

 

Whilst there, also mention the brakes getting hot/smelly and looking back at your bearing topic, coastline suggested the handbrake cables could be seized or possibly the pistons. So whilst it is on the ramps having the fluid done this could also be looked at and hopefully without charging.

[RichCliff]

Went to the same chaps who did the Wheel Bearing, and they fitted me in this afternoon. Told them to do exactly what you said....  even watched them finishing up the last bleed/flush through the rear nipple. So they flushed through all four nipples. They tested the brake fluid and it boiled at a stupid temperature way below the normal and this was the likely cause of the brakes failing yesterday.

 

They also noticed that ATS could not have used any copper grease when replacing the pads/discs at all and found even after 4 weeks of being changed, the driver side front was binding slightly.

 

Checked the hand brake pistons and cables and also calipers and these all looked to be operating correctly, which was odd and surprised me considering the problem I had before. Which i explained in detail to them today.

 

Total cost today, which included the complete brake check (calipers, pistons, discs, pads) and fliushing the fluid and renewing it was £40.80p.

 

Hopefully, it's all sorted, they checked the discs and pads and there doesn't seem to be any lasting damage by the extreme amount of heat they went through yesterday afternoon.

 

Now i need 4 new tyres urgently and the rear discs need doing. Tracking seems to be way out so tyres are balding on the inside on the front driver side <argh>

 

In the last 3 months i've spent nearly £700 so far and estimated another £430 for 4 new tyres and rear discs to be done. Then, expecting the cam belt to be the next issue.

 

One month perhaps this year, i might be able to spend my wages on me and my family other than the bloody mortgage and car!

Edited August 3, 2015 by RichCliff

[paul.h]

I can think of one company you may not be using for tyres and tracking. In the last year we've bought Michelin tyres for a C3 and a C4 and for one Kwik Fit were the lowest price and the other Halfords but we did a bit of searching on the internet to find this. These were a common tyre size which meant the costs were reasonable when compared to the last ones for the C5.

 

It may be possible the front driver's side tyre is worn due to the wheel bearing. When the tracking is out I think both front tyres would be similarly worn on the inside or the outside edges.

[MikeLane]

Just for info, the front wheels are slightly wider apart than the back wheels. My car felt "different" after having new tyres fitted as the fitter used his laser tracking device to try to make them parallel so they were badly toed out. Took it back after a couple of days and got the Manager to check and reset the tracking!

Edited August 26, 2015 by MikeLane

[RichCliff]

Well,

Since my brake fluid boiled and made the brakes glow.... They've warped. As it was brake fluid which needed replacing (badly by the sounds of it going by the independent garage) it's my fault i guess. When i brake the steering wheel wobbles like mad, in fact the whole car does. 

 

As for the tyres, i got them replaced and tracking and you're bang on, the car just doesn't feel right. I had the tracking done because the front wheels were worn badly on the inside of the tyre.  Had it done at National Tyres.

Now when i am driving, the car just feel correct, and i also get a noise coming from the front wheels when i turn left or right, which i didn't have before.

 

I'm absolutely fed up with this car, can't afford, at the moment to replace it but then i'm slowly tallying up the costs every single month. If it's not the brakes, it's the tracking, if it's not that, it's engine knocking, if not that, the wheel bearing or the hand brake or the gearbox. 

[paul.h]

It hurts to suggest this, but I would be tempted to go back to ATS under the guarantee since it is possible they did not do the disc replacement properly and ensure the disc run out was within tolerance, or maybe they used cheap parts. Whilst it may have been ok to start with, after some time the discs would wear unevenly and give the problems you now have. I would not think you caused the problem when they failed since if that had warped the discs it would have been noticed straight away - in any case I would not even mention this since it is not likely to be relevant but they might use it as an excuse.

 

It is also possible the rear brakes could cause the steering wheel to wobble - I had this on a Maxi many years ago and it was a rear brake drum that had worn badly.

 

The noise when turning might be the brakes.