Timing Marks

[Weeksie]

Our 2002 1.4 8v C3 conked out on the motorway, recovery guy said that the cam belt had failed.  We took the covers off and could see that we had lost quite a lot of teeth in the cam belt, so stripped it down and put In new valves, new valve stem seals, new head gasket, new water pump and did and oil and filter change.  However when we try and start it up is doesn't work.  I put the locking tool in the cam, but the crank had what I though was a timing mark so I just aligned those before I put the new belt on.  I fear I have bent the new valves because when looking back through the Haynes manual - I saw that I should have locked the flywheel.  However, on some other forums it says that the flywheel is attached to the crankshaft so as long as it is lined up to the timing mark correctly - it should be ok?  I don't know what to believe?  I also did the valve clearances so im not sure why it isn't starting up?  Its literally just cranking over and not firing. There was a pop of air when I tried to start it up the first time.  I also noticed when I was doing the valve clearances that I couldn't

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I would lock the flywheel as noted in the Haynes manual but you can bend a length of 6mm threaded bar to fit in the hole on the block and through it to the hole in the flywheel but until you have it bent accurately it is a bit awkward due to a web on the block that gets in the way. The straight bit to go in the hole needs to be about 35mm long. Then see if the cam timing is still correct.

[Weeksie]

Thanks for responding, how will I know if the flywheel is in the correct position? (probably a very stupid question!)

[paul.h]

You will need to turn the engine with a spanner on the aux belt pulley bolt whilst pushing in the 6mm rod until it goes in to the hole on the flywheel.

 

I had a look at a photo I took of our 2003 1.4 75 bhp petrol C3 when I replaced the timing belt and could not see any timing marks on the crank pulley so I had marked it with white paint against the housing as well as using a bolt to lock the cam pulley and the 6mm rod in the flywheel. In this position though there is a stamp on the crankshaft timing belt pulley front face with a 2 on it and this is at or close to the bottom of the pulley when all locked in place and is half way between 2 of the 3 bolt holes for the aux belt pulley. So as a start you could turn the engine so one of the aux belt pulley bolts is at the top and then see if the 6mm rod fits in the flywheel, if not turn the engine to the next bolt at the top and try again, if not then try the last bolt at the top.

[Weeksie]

Thanks, will get my other half to gently push the lock in the timing hole while I turn the crankshaft pulley. Took the cylinder head off tonight to discover utter devastation - one snapped valve and the rest really bent along with one piston head with a deep gauge in it. I am hoping as the piston head damage is not punched all the way through the metal that it will be ok to keep in. A big lesson for me... read the Haynes manual properly!! Thanks for all your help, hopefully will have it back on the road next week!

[paul.h]

How many miles/years is it since the timing belt was last changed since the interval is the first of 10 years or 80k miles if Citroen parts are fitted ? If other makes of parts are used then the interval could be different. If they were not Citroen parts do you know what make they were ?

[Weeksie]

Put the car back together today - locked the flywheel and cam - but it's now running rough and the engine management light is on - any ideas?

[paul.h]

Check you have connected all the sensors but otherwise you will need to use a code reader to find out the fault code since it could be any of the engine sensors - cam shaft, crankshaft (but this one would normally stop the engine), inlet lambda sensor fault or if bad fuelling it may be out of range, catalyst not working shown by outlet lambda sensor but unless this is due to bad fuelling it would not affect the running, MAP sensor, injector failure, spark plug or ignition coil problem or its wiring (the earth wire at the gearbox end of the coil can easily snap).

 

Maybe you could do a compression test or look at the spark plugs to see if one cylinder is at fault such as valves not fully seated. Was there any damage to the cam shaft or rocker gear ?

[Weeksie]

The timing belt wasent tensioned properly... Now all resolved! Thanks so much for your help it's really appreciated ! :-)

[paul.h]

You are are probably an expert on the C3 timing belt now. When I did the belt on our C3 I found getting the tensioner set up following the Haynes manual did not seem straight forward and had a few goes at it since its setting seemed to change when the engine was rotated.

 

There was a recent topic where there was worry that the cylinder liners could move when replacing the head gasket to stop an oil leak. Did you have any problems and did you bother clamping the liners whilst the head was off ?

[Weeksie]

Yes - I had a bit of a nightmare with the tensioner - took an hour to get it right! I made my own wooden clamps for the wet liners and used the cylinder head bolts to clamp it down securely - I didn't want to take any chances with them as I had read that it can be a real pain if they move. The only thing I forgot to do was put the gasket between the exhaust manifold and the cat, I will put it up on ramps next week to drop the exhaust and put it back on. When I bought the car last year I could see that the car hadent been maintained for some while... The bearings on the front suspension struts were badly worn and 'boinging', the oil was black and sludgy and it wasent firing properly. It's had 3 oil changes in 1 year and there is still a bit of sludge coming through, I am going to replace the sump gasket at the next oil and filter change as there is a slight leak so hopefully the sludge will settle In the sump so it will be removed when I take it off. Can't really grumble tho as the car only cost 700 quid!

[Mr Micawber]

 

I had a look at a photo I took of our 2003 1.4 75 bhp petrol C3 when I replaced the timing belt ....

 

 

 When I did the belt on our C3 I found getting the tensioner set up following the Haynes manual did not seem straight forward and had a few goes at it since its setting seemed to change when the engine was rotated.

Hello Paul,

 

I wonder if you can help me because I'm having the same problem!  :o

 

I've just routinely renewed the timing belt on our 1.4 litre 8v 75 bhp KFV engine using the locking tools and following both Citroen and Haynes manuals. The engine starts immediately and runs but with an intermittent rattle when revved above idle. As I turn the engine by hand, the belt tension slackens then re-tensions again. I'm experienced in car maintenance but have not done a cambelt before, and this variation in tension doesn't seem right to me.  :wacko:

 

I wouldn't be surprised if I've mounted the tensioner incorrectly because I cannot find any guidance for this in the manuals. Here's a picture of my installation with the water pump sprocket in the background:

 

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/imagehosting/101856d1f6ea4436a.jpg

 

Just to the left of the pointer you can see that I have positioned the two pronged fork over a web in the engine casting. Is this the correct mounting position please?

 

I would appreciate hearing from anyone who has successfully set-up this type of tensioner (KFV engine 1.4 litres 8 valves).

 

Simon

[Mr Micawber]

Thanks for the photograph Paul. It appears that I have got the baseplate mounted correctly, but my hexagon hole is in a different position! Do you remember how you eventually solved the problem of the varying belt tension?

 

Simon

[paul.h]

I do not remember the tension being variable, just the pointer was not in the right position after turning the engine over but after several attempts at setting the tension I gave up and left it.  I have noticed the stud that your tensioner fastens on seems to be longer than on our car or it has come unscrewed a bit.

 

Maybe you need to remove the tensioner, check the stud is right and refit the tensioner. I would also check the belt is not a tooth out and is the right one (length) against the old one - was it from a Citroen dealer ?

 

I will attach another couple of photos before I changed the belt.

 

 

 

[paul.h]

The site is not letting me add any more files, it is giving a max file size of 4.85kb. I deleted the previous photo thinking this may have been the problem but now I can not put it back on. I will try again another day.

 

I vaguely remember the hexagon being in a different position on the new tensioner once tightened.

[Mr Micawber]

I have noticed the stud that your tensioner fastens on seems to be longer than on our car or it has come unscrewed a bit.

 

Maybe you need to remove the tensioner, check the stud is right and refit the tensioner. I would also check the belt is not a tooth out and is the right one (length) against the old one - was it from a Citroen dealer ?

 

The belt is a Gates specified for my engine and was fitted with the camshaft and flywheel locked using the service tools.

I think initially I will reattach the engine mounting, start the engine and observe the belt tension.

Thanks for your interest Paul.

 

Simon  

[Mr Micawber]

My thanks to Paul for his help with this. Here are my findings which might be useful to other members in future.

 

The rattling was nothing to do with the cambelt. I think I may have forgotten to tighten the auxiliary belt tensioner securing bolts and observe the specified torque for the three crankshaft pulley bolts.

 

The new timing belt was also whining. I removed it and started the whole process again from the start. The first thing I noticed was that when lacing the new belt between crankshaft and camshaft sprockets, the flywheel locking pin (long version) has a tendancy to be pushed out. My security marks alerted me to this. The tool needs to be wedged in place.

 

The second thing is that the Sealey belt retaining clip (for the crankshaft sprocket) doesn't seem to me to offer anything useful at all. It has to be squeezed in a narrow gap between the casting flange and crankshaft sprocket. Then it's spring loading pushes the belt towards the centre which opposes your efforts to lace it properly. Thirdly, it's incredibly difficult to remove through that narrow gap. I'd be very surprised if dealers use this device.

 

Anyway, all seems well now. Thanks again Paul.

 

Simon