C5 1.6 Hdi 2007 Judders On Hills

[revittony]

Citroen C5 1.6 Hdi 2007 plate

 

i bought this car a couple of months ago and within 2 weeks came down with this problem.

car starts first time in the morning.  i drive down a hill and onto a level road.  i have to nurse the car to 3500 revs in 3rd gear to get the full turbo boost.  after that it runs as it should. i can go 25 miles this way, do a bit of shopping for an hour or so, but on the way home whenever i hit a hill it starts to judder.  it judders for 2-4 secs then goes as normal then it does the same thing over and over again till the car gets over the top of the hill.  at this point it goes back to normal.  this is the same every time.

 

i have checked the EGR valve... has a blanking plate on it.

DPF.... guts has been removed to leave an empty chamber.

leak-off test done, ran for 2 minutes on idle.  returned between 35-40mm per injector.

drive shaft checked, no signs of wear/heat.

Diesel tank unit checked, no pump on this model.

added BG244 to clean the injectors etc.

added Cataclean on first refill after using up the BG244.

was told to check the cooling fan in case it was seized, was free.

 

i have been told that the exhaust fumes smell like rotten eggs, Cat' failure.

this is the reason for adding the Cataclean, still the same.

 

the dash display has not shown any faults even when i caused one myself.  i disconnect the MAF plug and this should give a "depolution fault" error message.... none.  the only thing that ever pops up are, "rear seatbelts not fastened" and the radio station 30secs after startup.  never had anything else.

it has had a new turbo in the last 9 months and the timing belt was also done at about the same time

 

at this point i am thinking that i need to replace the Cat', Dpf and get the Eolys checked due to the milage. also the glow plugs as i think that that is what is causing the sluggishness on the first mile after starting. i haven't checked them yet.

the cost of this outweighs the value of the car but it is in great condition and, when it is running like it should, i love it.

 

anybody have any different ideas or other things to check, i would be very grateful

[paul.h]

The juddering could be the clutch and dual mass flywheel are worn out.

 

Pity the dpf has been removed since the car is not legal and you should tell your insurance company since it has been modified - if you need to make a claim and they find out you could find you are not insured. When a dpf is removed the ecu is usually modified to ignore the dpf and the eolys fluid system, so there is no point in fitting a dpf and adding eolys fluid unless you can also put the ecu software back to original. Similar for the egr valve.

 

You could do with a code reader that does live data to check the cat - the inlet lambda sensor should be constantly switching around 1.0 and the outlet one should be constant. If the outlet one is switching like the inlet then it shows the cat is not doing much. I would also check the battery is not on its last legs or being overcharged since that can give a rotten egg smell which you may think is coming from the exhaust, whereas if you had the smell from the cat it could show the fuel has a high sulphur content and the cat is working.

[MikeLane]

Sounds like the DMF to me too.

Mine did this, particularly on winding hills in Wales where I had to drive in third (and sometimes second) gear. Fine on the flat but eventually no drive as the DMF packed up.

Had it replaced with Valeo solid flywheel conversion kit.

Edited June 5, 2017 by MikeLane

[revittony]

i have been told that it is not the DMF as it does not judder on taking up the drive in first. pulls away just fine.

the other thing that i noticed is that when it starts the juddering there is a lot of grey smoke from the exhaust and you can see it in the mirror.

one other thing that i noticed when checking out all the common causes was that when i lifted the n/s/ front wheel off the deck and put it into first it rumbled very badly as if the drive shaft was off balance.  thought the engine was going to fall out. the o/s one did the same but not as bad.

would this also point to the DMF?  what checks can i do to negate this from the list of possibilities?

i saw a topic concerning this from Neil-bx and it turned out to be a drive shaft.  no such luck for me.

 

clutch is fine, stuck it in 5th and tried to pull away and it stalled, no slip evident.

Battery is also fine, no smells or leaks.  no corrosion around it either.

many thanks for the replies

[MikeLane]

Don't like the sound of "Grey Smoke"!

Could be a combustion problem so, like Paul. I think you need to get some live data to analyse.

[paul.h]

If you had a dpf then maybe there would not be the smoke. As MikeLane has suggested, a fueling problem is a possibility - such as an air leak, injector problem, temperature sensor fault so giving wrong mixture, thermostat fault, a fault with the cam belt - has it been changed yet, should be done at 10 years if it has not reached the recommended mileage.

 

Does the engine management light come on for a few seconds when starting the engine to show its lamp is working ?

[revittony]

Cam belt kit and water pump done late 2016 as was a new turbo fitted. have to take the revs over 3500 before i get full turbo though when the juddering starts

no engine management light after starting the engine. it comes on with the ignition though and goes out a few seconds after the engine is running. starts on the turn of the key, every time.

the smoke is a blue/grey but not an oil burning colour.  if it was burning oil it would be there all the time.

i kind of agree with the engine temp fault as it gets worse as it heats up. gauge says temp is normal but that could be wrong, i suppose.

i will look into the live data with my local scrap man as he has a garage attached to the yard.

 

i checked online for info on the DMF and found that when it is on the way out it shudders on take off and the gear change is affected as well. i do not have that problem.

 

thanks to all for the help

[revittony]

just returned from having it plugged in.

no faults found and no live data available. would re-mapping cause the info not to be stored and not give error messages?

getting worse now as it takes a long time to build up speed and judders straight away and all the way up to 60mph.

getting to the point of just scrapping it as, being disabled, it is getting so bad that i cannot trust it not to break down.

if it were the cam belt the problem would be there all of the time and not just on hills.

many thanks

[paul.h]

Have you tried using a Citroen dealer to see what is wrong ? I forgot to ask, how many miles has the car done ?

 

Checking live data was meant to be looking at the values given by all the sensors to see if they are giving normal values. Unless the remapping had a program that prevented fault codes being given or gave wide margins for the sensor values, then it is unlikely it would stop fault codes - however, you could try unplugging something that should give a fault code/eml on as a test, such as unplugging the MAF.

 

If you can get another car for less than the likely cost of getting yours fixed then it is worth considering. If it was the dmf/clutch then that could be around £700, putting the dpf back if you wanted to could be several £100 - but without knowing what is wrong it is a difficult decision.

[MikeLane]

Still sounds like the DMF to me - particularly if it judders nearly all the time.

DMFs don't get better, they get worse as more strain is put on the remaining parts and eventually you'll have no judders - and no drive.

Try to find a Citroen Dealer or independent Citroen specialist as he'll probably have seen the problem before.

(Still don't like the "grey smoke" from the exhaust.)

Edited June 10, 2017 by MikeLane

[revittony]

to Paul.h,

the car has done 140.000 miles. i have disconnected the MAF, as mentioned in my original post, and it gave no warnings. it was still disconnected when plugged into the computer(Snap-on) i reconnected it to drive home.  when it was unplugged it should have given me a "de-pollution fault" on the screen but it gives no warnings at all.

this would tie in with the computer not finding any fault codes or giving live readings.

 

yes, at this time i am between a rock and a hard place.  just about at tossing a coin. :D :(

 

to MikeLane.

the car does not judder all of the time, only when climbing a hill. it does not do it when pulling away and the gear-change is sweet.  the juddering is not constant and i can go for a few miles, at worst, before it starts.  would the DMF not do it all the time?

when it was worse, it was very wet and i checked for cracks in the wiring in case of short-circuits but found nothing.

 

when i said that it was getting worse, in my previous post,  i meant that it was taking a long time to build up speed, not the juddering.  sorry for the confusion

 

i have spoken the the mechanics at my local dealer and they cannot give me an answer. told them all of the symptoms and they just shrugged their shoulders, haven't got a clue. they only confirmed that it seems to be a fuel problem but would not tell me what to try.

 

the guy at the breakers, who plugged it in, has told me of another guy to see that deals with the DPF's and to take it to him, before doing anything else, as he might have the answer.

 

many thanks to you all for the help.... to be continued

[paul.h]

Something that could be checked is the timing in case the belt is a tooth out.

[paul.h]

Another thought, there could be a problem with the doser valve so the internal flaps are not going to the right position. Could also be a turbo problem. Have a look at these although they may not be of any help http://www.peugeotcentral.co.uk/ftopic-9290.html http://www.peugeotcentral.co.uk/ftopic-15155.html

 

Could also be a vacuum problem, check all the small diameter pipes for splits. Have a look at this and the problem was found in the last post http://peugeotrczforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=9481&sid=7eeb151b3faca6282bef90125ad98e71&start=20

[paul.h]

Have you checked the fuel filter in case it is blocked up or has water in it ? Have you filled up with fresh diesel in case the previous owner had put some odd fuel in, just thinking about the smell you mentioned ?

 

I guess if you contacted the previous owner for some recent history of the car and its problems and what they had tried to fix them, they may not want to talk to you, but it could be worth a try.

[revittony]

air and fuel filter both changed when the problem started.  opened up the fuel filter to see of there was any swarf in it, none.

tried to contact the previous owner but got no response, must have known of the problem.

if the timing was out it wouldn't run as smooth as it does, that is when it runs as it should, and that is only as it starts to heat up from cold.

i am a bit under the weather right now but when i get back on my feet i will be checking the throttle valve. i hope that this is the doser valve.

so many things that can cause the same problem.  

anyone got a Xantia Turbo diesel they don't want?

or even a BX Turbo Diesel?

them car were like tanks and could run forever, no electronics to go wrong.  i had a BX rdt estate once, over 250k on the clock when i sold it.

[paul.h]

I was reading something that suggested similar problems of juddering and smoke could be from an egr valve fault. Whilst your egr valve has a blanking plate, it may be worth checking the plate to see if it is in one piece and without any holes in it. If the plate is thin metal it might have become damaged or there could be an air leak on the pipes around it.

[revittony]

checked the throttle body(Doser) and the flap has no play and there is good tension on it. i tried to turn the flap and it has good pressure and returns well.

removed the EGR and the blanking plate is solid, no wear. 

thanks

[revittony]

i have been checking the pipes to see if there are any split/leaking and cannot find any. when testing the car at standstill i noticed it blip at 3000 rpm. did it every time i revved it up.

QUESTION.... my previous C5 1.6 HDI VTR had the DPF block on 2 occasions and when it did there was a lot of exhaust smoke coming from everywhere under the bonnet.  when it did this i could not rev above 1500 rpm and no power.

i did what someone on the internet said to do and drill 5 holes through the DPF and it worked, car ran a treat after that till the timing belt failed. when i had the DPF off to drill the holes i started the engine and blew out all of the soot.  

during this time, i found that it would blip at 3000 rpm and i assume that the "limp mode" kicked in for a few seconds then let it rev all the way up.

 

now, if the present car has NOT been re-mapped and it is doing the same as the old car, could it just be down to the DPF canister being empty and that is causing the lack of power getting up to speed and the juddering?

it would also line up with the turbo not giving full boost till 3k-3.5k revs

it would be like having no DPF on the car.

how would i check if it has been re-mapped, if there is a way?

sorry to all for not mentioning this before but i have just realised that it could be pertinent.

[revittony]

i have just retuned for seeing a guy that does the DPF cleaning as was recommended by the scrapyard mechanic.

he plugged his toy in and we took the car for a drive for up to date live data.

what was found was that there was low turbo boost.

he explained that the juddering was caused by the ECU delivering too much fuel and it was flooding causing the engine to hydraulic and was also the cause of the smoke.  this was caused by the low turbo boost and the ECU not knowing that it was so.

he also explained that over time i would have to drain oil from the sump as the excess fuel would go down past the piston rings and end up there.

the cause of the low boost could be caused by a leaking turbo pipe, a leaking inter cooler , a faulty boost valve or a faulty turbo.

he did not think that it was the boost valve as he viewed the actuator and it did not release during tick-over.

whoever did the re-map, of the ECU, just removed the EGR and DPF from the system and this could be the cause of no fault codes being stored or shown on the screen.

he did all this for FREE.

i will update when i have checked these out.

[paul.h]

You could also check if the turbo is the right one and that the variable vanes move.

[revittony]

the turbo was the correct one but was a re-manufactured one. i got another used one from a scrappy on ebay for £80 and put it on.

it now has full turbo and the car pulls like a new one.

did an oil and filter change in case that was what caused the problem with the original turbo.

the juddering is still there but is not as bad with the turbo working fully.

i haven't given it a full run yet but the signs are good, touch wood.

thank to all for the help.

[MikeLane]

Fingers crossed that it's fixed.

[revittony]

still judders but i have the feeling that it is a mechanical problem eg. drive shaft under load, as it still pulls well when it judders.

it does not slow when the judder starts like it did before

at this point i will do the mechanics thing and "let it develop".

if it is down to a drive problem it will either get worse or stay the same.

if it stays the same, i think that i can suffer it as the car goes like a new one now.

thanks