Sparks! Have I Fried Somethibg Expensive?

[sifaan]

When trying to get at the maxi fuses (for a non-working suspension) I had to remove a nut and I hadn't disconnected the battery (silly me)

This is the bolt immediately forward of the Ecu/fuse box.

The spanner struck the body and some sparks flew - not much, not heavy.

Disconnected the battery after that, and found that the 40a pump fuse was blown. But now the car is electrically dead. No key fob response, no indicators for key in ignition, and even the slight sparks when reconnecting the negative lead to the battery are missing.

Have I fried something expensive?

All the other maxi fuses, and the ones on the Ecu are fine. Didn't have time to check in glove box but it seems unlikely a master fuse would be there.

 

What should I check?

 

Thanks.

[Old Mosher]

Your bank balance.....

 

Only missing lol.

Can't remember off the top of my head where that cable goes to but I think its the supply to that box. have you got a meter? Check the voltage at the nut, no voltage? fallow the cable till you do. Could be a fuseable link in the cable, I don't know but Im sure someone will or Ill have a look an mine later and get back to you.

[coastline taxis]

Im assuming youve checked all the muti plugs into the ecu and fusebox and that youve put the maxifuses back in there right place. Check your battery. you might be lucky and just killed it. if not then i would think youve fried your main fusebox. are your hazzards working

[paul.h]

If you can not find a fusible link you may find the wire itself to that nut or where it is connected at the battery or the nut may have melted, likely at the thinnest point which would heat up the most if the high current has only gone between the battery and the nut. Hopefully it will not be as bad as coastline has suggested to check. Edited October 10, 2012 by paul.h

[Old Mosher]

What ever you find, get back to us. A forum full of answers as always better than one just full of questions.

[sifaan]

Seems I have shorted the battery across the resistance of the wrench.

Any idea if maintenance free batteries come with internal fuses?

 

Haven't replaced the busted maxi fuse but others are fine. The bust one was the first I checked, and even after that, things were dead - it's only subsequently that I removed and checked the other fuses 1 by 1.

 

Will hopefully borrow a volt meter today to check this properly

[sifaan]

Forgot to say that the hazards are not working either

 

In case the wire is good and the battery is dead, is it safe to try and jump start the car? - if so, should I do it as per normal procedure, or disconnect my battery and start off the other cars battery alone (with the other engine running?)

Or is it better to take the battery to a battery shop and get them to check it?

[sifaan]

the outlook is not good :(

battery tests OK (12V across terminals)

wire is good (negligible resistance across it, and voltage test from end of wire to battery negative is 12V)

battery negative clip is on tight (even voltage test from chassis to end of wire is 12V)

 

any suggestions on what I could check next?

if, as coastline says, the fuse box is fried, how can I confirm that? (

 

 

Thanks

/Sifaan

[coastline taxis]

Are your hazzards working and you must replace the blown maxi fuse 1st. The pump will power up without the ignition and the same fuse powers the ecu. But most importantly are your hazzards working the hazzards have there own little circut that is independant from everything else and runs via the fusebox and then the battery. also a volt test on ayour battery isnt what you need unless your checking your alternator you needto do a load test done

[sifaan]

hi coastline

the hazards are not working. i didn't expect it to be difficult to find a replacement fuse but it seems that's another treasure hunt all by itself in this neck of the woods

however, as the car was working (except for the suspension) before the fuse was removed, shouldn't it mean that it should still work while the fuse is out?

 

for a load test i'd have to take it to the battery shop anyway (assuming that the nearby place offers the service) so might as well get it charged up and see.

would I risk any further damage by trying a jump start? (I guess I'd have to leave the other car connected for a while with engine revving till the circuits boot themselves up?)

 

thanks

[coastline taxis]

You might of blown the fuse when you shorted it out. and jump starting it wont hurt it at all But youl get absolutley no where till you replace the fuse 1st

[sifaan]

finally some good news! sourced a 40A fuse yesterday and plugged it in this morning. when reconnecting the battery negative, there were light sparks (the kind that is usually present). so had some hope.

and in a few minutes, the car responded to the key fob, and even started in one go (normally it's a bad cold starter and needs 2-3 tries).

 

however, the suspension was on low, and when I pressed the up button - the car died.

back to the maxi fuse box, but the 40A fuse - indeed all the maxi fuses - are fine.

 

What might have happened?

Does the fusebox detect the presence of the fuses? coastline - is that why you were insisting on replacing the fuse?

what might have gone wrong now? battery suddenly died because it was idle for so long and too big a drain from the pump? but it would be unusual considering that it had enough juice to start on first crank?

 

BTW we do have some loose/damaged wiring at the ECU/fusebox - occassionaly we get AC/washer pump malfunctions, gearbox faults, immobilizer faults, etc but the car was always live

it would be a strange coincidence if something major had worked loose just when I checked the maxi fuse, and then stayed loose through subsequent inspections until the fuse was actually replaced, and then got loose again just when the suspension Up was pushed?

 

curiouser and curiouser :S

[coastline taxis]

had the car been jacked up when the suspension pump died. if so did you pt suspension on full befor jacking it up

[sifaan]

The suspension setting was low when the car came alive yesterday. Not sure if that's the setting it was on before the fuse went (the setting wasn't making a difference).

It wasn't jacked up by any other means

 

(Sorry coastline, not sure if I understand you correctly)

[sifaan]

so, decided to look for loose connections / wiggle some wires this morning.

as I was pulling the bonnet release, I noticed there was a display on the odo. tried the key and the car was live. but there was an immobilizer fault (loose wires at the ECU?). disconnected battery for a while, reconnected, and the fault went away and I could start the car.

but still the suspension didn't raise (nor could I hear the pump whir).

back to maxi fuses again, and this time the 40A fuse had blown again.

 

is it that the pump is bust (is there anyway to check - e.g. resistance across terminals?)? or could there be a short circuit in the pump wiring?

or is it that the pump is dying and can live a few more months with a 50A fuse?

[Old Mosher]

Wire csa's are not at all generas, so I would't try putting another 10 amps through it. If It were me, at this point I would be looking at the wiring to the pump for damage then have a good look at the pump for anything obvious. Then the next step, get another pup. I can't see the ohms reading giving you much of a clue till the pump controle tells it to run. My guess would be over current in the actual pump motor. I would test the logoc of that by setting the suspension to its lowest and the foot brake on, so the pump doesn't get a run command, put in a new fuse with a DC Amps clamp meter on the pump supply cable and see if It spikes. If you've plenty of fuses you could then put the suspension to normal and see if It spikes.

[Old Mosher]

Are you anywhere near Northants?

[coastline taxis]

if you look on the internet for PIN DATA for a c5 it will show you wich wire in the pump multi plug corosponds with the same wire in the ecu multi plug that way you can start checking the wiring for shorts. Or unplug the muti plug on the suspension pump and see if the fuse still blows

[paul.h]

Old Mosher, Sifaan is in Sri Lanka (from memory), hence his problems getting spares and probably the time difference for doing checks/posting replies.

[Old Mosher]

Lol can't see me nipping round to give him a hand then.

[sifaan]

Lol can't see me nipping round to give him a hand then.

well, not unless you fancy a holiday in Sri Lanka :)

 

will be away this weekend on work, will try to look at the wiring next week.

 

in case the wiring itself is not shorted, how difficult is it to replace the pump?

(wouldn't try that myself, but while good mechanics can be found, they wouldn't have exposure on citroen hydraulics.)

Edited October 19, 2012 by sifaan

[coastline taxis]

Very easy if youve got a lexia. If no lexia still very easy only difference is youl end up covered in lds fluid

 

1 remove plastic cover on offside of engine bay

2 remove pump multi plug

3 with lexia depresurize the system and remove pipes

4 without lexia remove pipes and get covered in lds fluid

5 unbolt pump and throuw away

6 put new pump on and do the above in reverse order

7 top up lds fluid and raise and lower suspension a few times. the system is self bleeding so just play with the hydraulic button and itl be fine. should take no more than a hour. only hard bit is the price of the lds fluid

[paul.h]

If the car is put on axle stands before disconnecting the pipes, will this stop the car sinking on to the bump stops and reduce the amount of LDS fluid loss ?

[sifaan]

sorry for the very late response - didn't have time to check anything the past few weeks.

just to confirm that the short is in the pump (and not the wiring), today I replaced the fuse and unplugged the pump's power supply. pressed suspension up/down buttons (car thought it was going up because the pump ECU was still plugged) but the fuse didn't blow.

So I guess that confirms it's a problem with the pump.

 

I found an used pump in Sri Lanka for Rs. 28000 (about 135 pounds), whereas on ebay UK it goes for 60 pounds and up. But unless I can find someone to hand-carry it, the cost of postage and possible customs duties would negate any savings I might make.

 

Is there any possibility that the pump might be repaired? Is it a sealed unit?

Labour costs are lower in Sri Lanka so many repairs that are not viable in UK are carried out here (e.g. rewinding starter motors/alternators).

 

Thanks

[sifaan]

Update (not very positive):

 

Bought the used pump available locally plus lots of LDS. My chinese Lexia wasn't upto the mark (I think it is not connecting well to the OBD2 based on the error messages I get) so couldn't depressurize the system.

Removed the pump (lost loads of LDS) and fitted the new one and put in about 4l of LDS. (wasn't DIY, got a Pug mechanic home to do it - cost less than 20 pounds for half a day of work, including the trip to the shop to get the pump)

 

The pump whirs when I press the suspension up button (and also when the battery was reconnected after the job) but the car doesn't move up or down (I tried citraerobics for about 20 minutes to no avail). The LDS level in the tank doesn't seem to change either.

(BTW The powersteering works)

 

What should I try next?

 

As far as I could notice, everything was connected back fine (used new worm drive clips instead of the original hose clips - I had read that those can't be reused and mechanic also said the same). Except - there's 3 wires coming to the pump: 1 single yellow wire on a double connector (1 unusued), and below that 2 wires in a ovalish connector with a red clip lock. The red lock (even with the headlamp removed) couldn't be pushed back in all the way but the plug seems secure.

 

The internal display shows the car up/down in the various stages (like it did even with the dead pump)

 

Thanks