Turbo Renewal

[citrophile]

Hi All

 

Just a quick question for now.

 

My C5 I think blew its turbo today, it's a 2.0HDI 138, and wondered if it is a difficult job to replace and how long it might take me.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[Parkesie]

Turbo change isnt to hard its just taking the time to flush out the intercooler the exhaust that people leave and wonder why it still smokes like alot. I say its not hard that relies on no exhaust bolts snapping :)

[citrophile]

Thanks Parkesie

 

You say it isn't that difficult but I have now looked in the Haynes manual it talks about removing the subframe, drive shafts, wheel hubs, depressuring the hydraulics etc which to me seems like an awful lot of work. I'm pretty handy with cars but all that seems too much to be able to do over a weekend on my drive!

 

It may be that its so difficult because it is the 2.0HDI with the turbo behind the engine. My wife's C3 1.6HDI has it nice and conveniently placed right in front where you can get at it. (Maybe the Engine designer had a question mark over the reliability so put the 1.6 turbo there to be kind to the dealers!!)

 

My dilemma now is that I really like the C5's and, having fitted a new clutch, flywheel, timing belt, front discs and pads, 4 michelins etc in the past 3 months I don't really want to get rid of it. :(

 

However, I don't think it's worth taking to a garage as it will likely cost more than a replacement car (if I can find the right spec?)

 

Any more thoughts anyone before I start trawling through ebay and autotrader!

 

Rob

[paul.h]

The Citroen manuals are similar and give 4.6 hours for the job - so a DIY job may save about £300-400 in labour. If you are taking the parts from your second C5, I guess you will be doing the job almost twice.

 

When I had a turbo fail on a petrol Saab the car was surrounded in a cloud of smoke on the M6 junction 40 hard shoulder, what are your symptoms ? 2005 repair cost was about £1200 for labour, turbo, catalyst, lambda sensor, coolant and the turbo was on the front of the engine so easy to get at.

[citrophile]

Hi Paul

 

Yes I was thinking of taking the parts off my donor car, if it wasn't too difficult. I'm pretty good with a spanner just a little out of practice.

 

The symptoms I had were a distinct lack of power earlier in the day which I put down to it going into limp mode which it rarely does but usually resets itself when restarted. This time it didn't and when driving home after a few miles the power was almost non existent and I barely made it up the exit ramp off the north circular. When I got to the roundabout at the top and dipped the clutch there was a horrible rattling noise, cloud of smoke from exhaust and the engine started to race away. I just managed to pull out of the traffic before it stopped.

 

Called AA and when chap arrived he suspected turbo failure, checked the oil (almost none left) and then took off the air intake pipes from the inlet manifold and they had loads of oil in them. He said the turbo will have sucked the oil in when it failed. His advice was not to attempt to start the engine as it may cause further damage.

 

Do you think it will just be a turbo failure or will I have to replace lots of other bits too.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[paul.h]

In my case only the turbo had to be replaced (plus the catalyst which the garage said would be full of oil) since it had not broken up and put bits of metal through the engine. The engine was only run for a few minutes after the cloud to get on the hard shoulder and by the garage to check the failure.

 

It is a pity it is not easy to remove the turbo outlet pipe to see if the impeller is in one piece so you know if the engine will be ok.

[citrophile]

Had a better look at it all today. Looks an awkward job but I'm gonna have a go!

 

I disconnected the engine air intakes from the turbo this morning and the engine does start and run and seems OK at the moment.
 

Fingers crossed it will just need a turbo replacement and cleaning out the air intakes and intercooler.

 

Rob

 

[coastline taxis]

its not as bad a job as it sounds. remove the drivers side driveshaft and the ***oops*** tray bar at the back and the exhaust clamp and the hangar bar nextc to the cat and the rest of the exhaust is just held on with hangers sounds a lot but will all be off within a hour. Stand exhausst up to drain off and remove the turbo from underneath the car 3 bolts a few jubilee clips and a oil feed pipe and its off. Make sure youve got the car well chocked up and the battery disconected

[citrophile]

Thanks Coastline

 

That's a really helpful bit of advice. To be honest I have been a bit nervous about it as lots of people have said it's a pig of a job.

 

You don't mention the sub-frame. Do I need to take that off too and the steering rack, like the book says?

 

Also, do i need to do anything with the suspension? I cant raise or lower it because the engine doesn't run but i read something about de-presssurising it. Is that necessary and if so, how do i re-pressurise it after.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[paul.h]

If you have to depressurise the suspension I think it will only be the front that will need doing and will be along the lines of - disconnect the battery so the pump will not run, have the car body on axle stands otherwise when the pressure is reduced the car will sink to only a few inches above the ground, slacken the lds fluid tank lid to let out any pressure, about the middle of the front suspension is like a bleed screw which when slackened lets out the lds (into a container) and the pressure reduces - the pressure is from the weight of the car on the wheels/struts.

 

When the job is finished, top up the lds tank with new fluid and put the cap on, connect the battery, run the engine and raise/lower the car on the pump a few times and it should be ok but the level may need to be checked/topped up again.

[coastline taxis]

ive never depessurized a one yet and to be honest if you have the patients and the tools you dont need to remove the driveshaft.the part of the subframe ther on about will be the bar at the back that holds the tray up 2x 15mm bolts either side and its straight off. its a very fiddly and twisty job due to some of  the bolts being awkward to get to dont forget to renew the oil feed pipe to the turbo. once youve removed all the bolts and clips you have to turn and twist the turbo out through the bottom off the car. Once youve went under the car to start the job and had a look youl see whats what and soon have it out

[citrophile]

Thanks coastline, this is beginning to sound a bit easier than i thought

[citrophile]

^{BTW, anyone recommend a good supplier for a reconditioned turbo?}

[citrophile]

Have just been looking online for a replacement turbo and the GT1749V that I need seems to have some sort of cartridge bit in the middle (CHRA?) which contains the shaft and impellors in one unit.

 

Does this mean I don't have to buy a complete unit and can just do a rebuild with a new CHRA cartridge and seals?

Edited October 8, 2013 by citrophile

[qman3428]

Yes that is right and if you look on youtube there are excellent videos showing you step by step

[coastline taxis]

depends on what part of the country your in. We use  http://www.turboactive.com/Service.aspx?PageType=ContactUs.

\theyve always been decent and fair and never tried to rip any of the people that we send there. And most importantly they do a good jod at a fair price and been using them for over 4 years now

 

.

 

      

[citrophile]

OK, so started to strip the car yesterday, at least up until the sodding weather (heavy rain) made it impossible.

 

Managed to get the cat/ particle filter off without too much trouble and it does give you reasonable access to the pre- cat heat shield. Engine undertray wasn't too difficult either although I managed to break off a corner as someone hadn't refitted it properly previously.

 

Exhaust and cat looks pretty clean inside so looks like no issues from the turbo failure thankfully.

 

One thing I'm still not clear about is whether I still have to remove the drivers side driveshaft.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[citrophile]

Hi All

 

Well, after 3 days, finally got the turbo off! If it hadn't been for the awful wind and rain, especially on Friday and today I reckon it could have been off in a day. It's definitely failed, the shaft wobbles about like a drunken teenager on Saturday night, but the rest of it looks fine. There's no impeller damage so nothing has been thrown into the engine, other than oil sucked through the air intakes and intercooler.

 

I'm going to write up a more detailed post about the removal and refitting (once I do that next weekend) as there are a number of pitfalls to avoid which would have made it a bit less frustrating.

 

For now I will say that the pre-cat is a complete pain in the a*se. Such an awkward shape and with heatshields which make it almost impossible to get at anything. Even when loose it is like the krypton factor (40 somethings will know what I mean!!) to try and twist it and turn it to remove it. In the end I left it where it was and removed the turbo around it.

 

I didn't take the sub-frame off but took out the right hand drive shaft as it was pretty easy to remove once you got over the balljoint removal on the hub. I might take the sub-frame off next weekend when I refit the turbo just to see if it makes a difference as there should be a bit more room.

It's not impossible but does require perseverance and a certain amount of patience. If you're using the haynes manual as a guide then there are a few fundemental errors. More of these later but one biggy was the fact that there is a bracket underneath the exhaust side of the turbo which attaches it to the cylinder block - no mention of this anywhere!!. Will be stripping it down tomorrow and then ordering the necessary bits to rebuild it.

 

Quite funny when I eventually got it out and run in the house with it........look, look, I haven't been just hiding for 3 days, here it is. Bit like I had won a trophy or something!

 

Thanks all for your advice, would never have tackled it otherwise, even though I am reasonably competent when it comes to cars.

 

More to follow next week when it's refitted.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[Parkesie]

Sounds like your having fun. Keep us updated.

[citrophile]

Have ordered new CHRA cartridge for turbo, should be here tomorrow.

 

What's the best thing to use to clean the turbo bits and should I try and clean all the carbon and soot out of the turbine housing as well?

 

Rob

[citrophile]

One other thing, a lot of the air intake tubing and the intercooler are full of oil. Whats the best for cleaning those too. I'm sure I read somewhere that paraffin was good but sounds a bit "low tech" to me?

Rob

[paul.h]

I once used paraffin to clean a cylinder head after some work on it but it does not evaporate so needs to be wiped off and I have not used it since. Better with something like carb cleaner, spray on/wipe on and oil comes off easily - but it needs doing outside since it is highly flammable. White spirit/turps is another good one for oil cleaning but again does not evaporate too well but being cheap it can be poured into the cooler, shook about a bit and then run out. No doubt coastline taxis will have the best practical method once he reads your post.