C5 Mk3 Towing Experience Please

[Oldmicrochip]

Does anyone drive a Mk3 with steel struts suspension and not the Hydro type suspension, to tow a Caravan with it, I am considering getting the Mk3 VTR or VTR+, not the top of the range as there is not many around used. Or how does the ride feel if you don't tow?????.

[Johndouglas]

Put your question on the forum again in a few weeks time then I may be able to give you an answer. Today I went out to try a C5 VTR+ Tourer. In spite of the heavy rain I enjoyed the drive. Get the car on rough surfaces and you quickly realise you haven't got hydropneumatic suspension beneath you, but generally I was impressed with the car. So much so that I did a deal to have it. At the moment it's without a tow bar so I've arranged to collect in about two weeks time. That will give me time to get my own MOT's and prepared for sale. Having towed with hydraulic Citroens since 1990, getting used to not being able to raise and lower the suspension for hitching on, will take some getting used to.

[paul.h]

John,

good luck with the new car and I can't wait for your towing report.

[paul.h]

The Caravan Club are going to do a comparison of the new C5 against the Peugeot 508 in the September 2014 magazine and have requested owners reports by 7th May.

[Johndouglas]

Yes! I saw that in the mag but doubt if I'll get in any towing experience with it before the deadline.

[Johndouglas]

I got back a couple of days ago from my first tow with the new (to me) Mk 3 VTR+ tourer. First off I found it a new experience to have to wind up the jockey wheel to hitch on – then lower it onto the towball. For the past 22 years I've been able to lower the suspension, place the hitch in position then raise the car to secure the coupling. Then I expected to see the tail end sag a bit with the additional weight on the rear, but not so, the tail end hardly moved. If anything, with the extra weight of the caravan, the steel suspension seemed more like the hydraulic system. Once on the motorway the caravan was as well behaved as it was on my Mk2 Exclusive C5 estate. The big surprise came with the performance. It was a calm windless day and having switched on the cruise control for 56mph together with 16C on the aircon, I was able to do long sections of the route in 6th gear. At journey's end, some 75 miles away, my average fuel consumption was 35mpg. With my previous 136bhp C5 my best average was never better than 30.5mpg.

So from a towing point of view, I have no regrets that I changed cars, however there are features that I could well do without. I do dislike the position of the handbrake lever – so far over to the passenger side of the car. No doubt a left-over from it's LHD design. Another feature I could well do without is the central armrest. It's too far back to act as an armrest unless your hand is off the steering wheel. Then there's that ridiculous cupholder within the box itself. The seatbelt connector is difficult to reach, being squashed between the seat and the centre box.

And finally, the roof line must be considerably lower than the Mk2 because it's so easy to bang your head getting in and out of the car. Also when I carry my foldup bike behind the passenger seat, it's much more difficult to load because of reduced headroom.

That sounds like a lot of negative points, but I enjoy the performance of the car so I have no regrets that I changed.

 

EDIT.   When I went to fit my towing mirrors - a pair which I've used on a BX, a Xantia and my previous Mk 2 C5,  wouldn't fit.   They were the type with two straight arms joined by two strong rubber bands.   Because the Mk 3 mirrors are more rounded and bulky, I needed mirrors of a different type.  

[paul.h]

I think this is worth pinning since it is the first report I have seen on towing with a steel sprung new C5. Have you noticed if the fuel economy when not towing is also much better than your previous C5 ?

[Johndouglas]

Have you noticed if the fuel economy when not towing is also much better than your previous C5 ?

I have indeed. A week or so ago I did a ride down the M23/A24 to the coast at a modest 60/65. On the fuel computer I'd achieved 61mpg when I'd reached the outskirts of Worthing, but by the time I'd driven through town and a couple of circuits of the carpark, it was down to 55. But even so, I was well pleased.

[Oldmicrochip]

I have now had my C5 Mk3 for nearly 3 months, and I am very pleased with it.

Down side-I got used to the position of the handbrake and the steel springs , no Hydro bits, but you get used to it very quickly, because its a Saloon and not a Hatch the boot is a bit smaller.

Up side- There are good bits like the extra front lights at night when you turn the steering wheel, they light up the side of the road, the rear mirror goes dark when someone is behind you with there lights on(You don't have to move the mirror), Satnav is very good, the gearbox is very good, and best of all is the MPG, I picked up a caravan 70 miles from home and got 32mpg+, and on a mid to long run I got 55-70 mpg, 70 down to 60 when I hit town. It looks good too, and the best part was it was over for £9 grand for a car that was 3.5 years old with only 20,000miles(ex Motability car) on the clock with a major service just done.

[Sixchannel]

 

EDIT.   When I went to fit my towing mirrors - a pair which I've used on a BX, a Xantia and my previous Mk 2 C5,  wouldn't fit.   They were the type with two straight arms joined by two strong rubber bands.   Because the Mk 3 mirrors are more rounded and bulky, I needed mirrors of a different type.

 

So John,what did you fit?? My old Maypoles (from my Xantia) won't fit to the highly tapered wing mirrors on the MK3 C5 Tourer. The season approacheth and I'm stuck.

HELP!

Ian

[Sixchannel]

Milenco Aero 2 fit perfectly.

[Johndouglas]

So John,what did you fit??

Sorry not to have replied before. I've been away and on limited internet access. The mirrors I bought were Maypole Mirrors MP8323. They are on ebay. They work really well and feel secure, without any vibration. Only one small snag which doesn't always happen. Because the gap between the door mirror casing and the edge of the mirror glass is so small, when the towing mirror is put on, the clip pushes against the face of the door mirror and moves it out of adjustment. When I get around to it I'll look into seeing if a bit can be filed off the clips.

 

With the caravan attached and a heavily loaded car I've found that when going over some high speed humps the bounce on the steel springs has allowed the jockey-wheel to ground. Therefore I'm considering fitting some Grayston assisters on the rear springs.

[paul.h]

Before I got a C5 sometimes our caravan jockey wheel would catch the floor. One particular place, the storage entrance has a slight incline off the road and the wheel would catch with the car going up the incline just before the caravan wheels started on the incline. I tried the Grayston rubber spring inserts on a Saab 900 mainly to lift the back of the car up but they affected the cars handling. I also tried heavy duty springs but again the handling was not right. If I had to do this again I would be tempted by MAD springs which go inside existing ones but they are a bit expensive at £224.60 for a C5 tourer http://mad-suspension.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=1&sort=p.model&order=ASC

 

.

[Johndouglas]

Thanks for that Paul. I'd decided on the Grayston because I used them on a Ford Sierra Estate for 8 years prior to my changing to Citroens in 1990. My experience then was that they had no effect if the car was lightly loaded. However I'll look into the MAD ones.

 

(Maybe I should just get rid of the pneumatic jockey wheel.)

[Johndouglas]

they are a bit expensive at £224.60 for a C5 tourer http://mad-suspension.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=1&sort=p.model&order=ASC

 

.

Thanks for that link Paul. They look good. It's curious that every outlet I've looked at all have the same price - even down to the last 60p. You would think someone would be under-cutting.

[Ceenine]

I own a 2010 C5 HDI 2.0 litre. Towing a low profile Campervan weighing approx. 1 tonne my fuel consumption increases (economy decreases) from 7.3 l/100 km to 10.5l/100km.This represents an increase of 40% odd. This seems to be considerably more than UK experience (I live in Tasmania). Maybe due to reduced density of air in the UK (except for the immediate vicinity of the Houses of Parliament of course)

[Johndouglas]

An increase of 40% sounds reasonable to me. My vehicle is also a 2010 2ltr C5 (estate) and both when towing and driving solo, a small reduction in speed can have a big effect on fuel consumption. If I drive solo on a motorway at our national speed limit of 70 mph (112KPH) my fuel consumption is around 55mpg. Drop the speed to 65mph and fuel consumption falls to 61 or so mpg. Likewise when towing with the van, at the speed limit of 60mph fuel consumption is 30mpg but drop the speed to 55mph and consumption rises to 32mpg. These averages are for reasonably flat terrain. Take the outfit into the mountains and the fuel consumption takes a hit.

[Ceenine]

I normally (have always) towed my 1 tonne camper van with my 2007 C5 ll 2.2 DW12 ted4 (twin turbo) saloon (sedan in Australia) because it has better pulling power than my  2011 C5 X7 2.0 DWCTED4 Tourer (wagon). The difference in kw and nm is very noticeable. I also find that the X7 has cushier suspension than the Cll although maybe in S mode it may be firmer. Having said that I find the difference in S to normal suspension mode in the X7 to be hardly noticeable on most types of road types (bumpy vs smooth). I have read that others have found this to be so also. Because of the cushy factor of the X7 I have continued to use the C5 ll for towing.

 

Getting back to tow vehicles, there is a large difference in fuel consumption in these vehicles. This is due in part I believe due to the changed driving behaviour in a more powerful vehicle. When you have more grunt then you tend to use it.

 

Are there any caravan users out there who have gone from the bigger motor C5 to the smaller or vice versa and if so, which is the preferable?

[paul.h]

I have found the heavier and more powerful the car the better a towcar it makes when pulling the same caravan.

 

On our previous caravan (about 1100 kg when towing) it was towed with a Saab 900 2.0 petrol, a Saab 9000 2.0 petrol turbo, a Saab 9-3 2.3 petrol turbo, a Citroen Xsara Picasso 2.0 hdi (the worst of them all for towing since I found it was not heavy enough to be always in control and was only used for 1 outing), a Citroen mark 1 C5 2.2 hdi 136 bhp hatchback - this was the best for this caravan being the heaviest and highest engine torque and the self leveling suspension and could pull the caravan all day without you really noticing it.

 

On our latest caravan (about 1350 kg when towing) has been towed by the mark 1 C5 and now by a mark 2 C5 2.2 hdi 173 bhp estate. The mark 1 C5 coped but not as well as with the previous caravan but the mark 2 is a lot better due to the higher weight and power/torque and again you do not notice the caravan much.

[Ceenine]

I have found the heavier and more powerful the car the better a towcar it makes when pulling the same caravan.

 

On our previous caravan (about 1100 kg when towing) it was towed with a Saab 900 2.0 petrol, a Saab 9000 2.0 petrol turbo, a Saab 9-3 2.3 petrol turbo, a Citroen Xsara Picasso 2.0 hdi (the worst of them all for towing since I found it was not heavy enough to be always in control and was only used for 1 outing), a Citroen mark 1 C5 2.2 hdi 136 bhp hatchback - this was the best for this caravan being the heaviest and highest engine torque and the self leveling suspension and could pull the caravan all day without you really noticing it.

 

On our latest caravan (about 1350 kg when towing) has been towed by the mark 1 C5 and now by a mark 2 C5 2.2 hdi 173 bhp estate. The mark 1 C5 coped but not as well as with the previous caravan but the mark 2 is a lot better due to the higher weight and power/torque and again you do not notice the caravan much.

Another reason that this car is good for towing is that, even though it is front wheel drive, it is more than compensated by the relative short distance from the tow ball to the line of the rear axle (or where the axle would be if there was one). The 2.2 litre is the pick for me for towing by a reasonable margin.

[Johndouglas]

I've never used a 2.2 C5 so cannot comment however my present C5-X7 with its 160bhp engine is preferable to my previous 136 bhp MkII. I've mentioned before that my present car is on steel springs and previously I've found that the back end sagged and rebounded when my caravan was hitched on. So much so that when I took the van to Spain in the winter I ruined the jockeywheel on a speed hump - The jockeywheel is a 9" diameter pneumatic, so it tends to hang low. But since then I've fitted some MAD towing springs which has transformed the ride. Without the caravan the stiffer springing isn't noticeable although when you view the car from side on, the stance of the rear end is somewhat higher than normal. Might even be that the headlights will need adjusting on the steering column. For others using a steel sprung C5 for towing, I can recommend them. They are a bit pricey in the UK but buy them from Germany and they can be had for around 25% less.

[des]

hi all newbie here just seen this post and thought i would reply have been towing caravans now for over 30 odd years all sorts of cars 4x4s and mpvs  just back from holiday towing my twin axle caravan max weight 1650 kg with my c5 x7 saloon 2.0 hdi .. the car towed great and boy am i surprised just how good it is ! loads of low down torque and i can even get it into 6th gear on slight inclines a lot better than my old c5 110hdi but not as good suspension ok without the van on the back but a bit wallowy on the hitch now i just need to get that steering leak fixed  lol :D

[Johndouglas]

i just need to get that steering leak fixed  lol :D

Hello & welcome to the forum. So another leaking steering rack. What year is your X7?

[des]

hi john its a 2008 saloon just back from holiday .. i had to take it into the citroen dealers as i was having problems with the car engine cutting out whilst towing display showed low oil pressure and anti pollution fault so they run a diagnostic test on the car and fitted a new engine fuse box total cost £169.00 ..not the sort of expense u need when you are on holiday  lol... the car engine is not cutting out now but since i came home i have had an antipollution message come up with the fault codes 2033 and 2084 it seems to point to the exhaust temp sensor so another thing to sort out the car has done 64000 miles so i might see about getting the dpf filter removed it seems the system causes a lot of problems ....still love the car though.. :)

[Johndouglas]

Hello Des. I half expected you to say 2008. There's been several reports of leaking steering racks on that year. Also the failing fuse box is another weakness. Have a read of this topic; http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/20279-common-problems-rev-872015/

I would think long and hard about getting the dpf removed. For a start it's now illegal to do so, and if you don't tell your insurers about it, you could be charged with driving without insurance since your policy would be void. On a more practical note, on my previous C5 with its 136bhp engine I had the filter removed. It performed well however it was never as good on the MOT smoke test as it was when it had the filter there. The thing is that on cars built after 2008, the smoke result has been lowered so now they are more likely not to achieve a pass level without a filter there.

Those two fault codes are related to the particle filter but I'd have thought 64,000 miles was a bit early for it to be dirty.