Dreaded Esp/asr Anti Pollution Fault

[joemac666]

Hi Guys

 

I realise this is an old chestnut but if anyone can help it would be appreciated.  I have a 2005 2.2 C5 estate elegance.  Full service history up to 100k and I've put 7k on it.  Got the wheels aligned about 8 weeks ago and that started the sadness.  Got the esp/asr and into limp mode.  Got the steering calibrated with a snapon and still the same.  After reading on this forum found the swirl valve rod was broken and got the new intake swirl valve fitted and still the same.  I got the egr blanked off at the top of the engine and tried that no joy.  Problem is getting someone to tell me its defo the dpf or egr is hard.  People tell me its that others say its not and everyone wants to charge but wont guarantee a fix.....to get the dpf/egr delete is £360.  I dont mind paying that but would hate to do that and its a turbo for example.  This is what I do know and I used an ebay lead and some software tonight to read the codes but nothing much came up except P1352 which it says is ignition coil A primary circuit.......previous to that I was getting turbo overboost P0238, P040, P0400.  Btw, the car does mostly motorway driving and at that stage 200 miles a day.  Dont use it now for that until this is sorted, my trusty mondeo with 160k is still saving the day lol.

 

I was also told to check stop light bulbs as this can cause this error....I did and low and behold I had a rear stop light out which I sorted last night.  Same esp problem but only this P1352 code now.... I ran the laptop on a quick run and got some data but I havent a clue if its any use and was wondering if any of you guys could have a look and give me your opinion if possible?  The car starts great and can drive for a few hours or 20 mins and then beep beep hello limp mode.  The eoyls was filled in Oct, full service as well with a stealer.  I'm going to try another mechanic tomorrow for his tupence worth but I really would value any suggestions from you guys save burning the car lol.  Just tried uploading the pic but getting a server error. Heres the detail;

 

Calculated engine load 29.8

Intake manifold absolute pressure 103.0

intake air temperature 58

air flow rate from mass flow sensor 11.77

fuel rail pressure 25300

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[coastline taxis]

I think the diagnostic tool your using is wrong. The readings youve put up arnt right and it would be impossible for the engine to run on them readings. your just throwing good money after bad here and as is always the case when more than one person works on a car youl get conflicting views. Take it to the dealers for a full diagnostic print out then start looking for the fixes

[paul.h]

I would not consider the egr removal and dpf removal route since to remove the dpf is illegal and the car would not pass the MOT and would not be insured and the money would be wasted, plus these are probably not the problem since you have not mentioned an anti pollution warning. In the future it is likely this may also be the case with the egr valve.

 

ESP/ASR are related to the car speed and the sensor for this is often an abs sensor - so this could be related to the work on the wheel alignment. Maybe a sensor or its wiring has been damaged and a dealer diagnostic check is likely to show this. I think steering calibration is only needed if the steering column switch (comms 2000) unit has been changed so the steering sensor in it needs calibrating.

 

P1352 does not make sense since your car is not a petrol one with an ignition coil.

 

For the live data you have given to make any sense would need you to include the units such as %, mbar, °C.

[joemac666]

Thanks guys. The site wouldn't let me upload the pic of the results and I just typed the first column however it would appear it's not right anyway. I'm getting it back on a proper diagnostic tool today and hopefully get a proper indication what's up. I have never seen any dpf error messages hence my reluctance to change/remove the dpf. I hope I get better info today and believe I need to go into the Asr sub menus if it's wheel related. I'll post the results of the test later but thanks for the pointers guys.

[paul.h]

To post photos I think they need to be on another site and then a link to it can be posted here.

[joemac666]

Ahh, thats probably right about the pics, cheers.  Had another guy put the car on a snapon and it came up with p0380 preheating relay circuit , P0234 turbo pressure regulation, P0235 turbo pressure signal.  He advised disconnecting the maf and see what happens which I did but the esp/asr came on as usual around 2300 rpm so I'll connect that back again.  He said he would like to do a smoke test on hoses first and then if not that its most likely a sensor and its not the dpf/egr.  I'm bringing it over to him on Tuesday.  He says to do the cheap stuff first which sounds good, i'm hoping the turbo is not chinned........  What do you guys think?

[paul.h]

Rather than using a snapon, you would probably be better at a Citroen dealer using their Lexia equipment. Otherwise doing things like smoke tests looking for air leaks will likely cost you in labour. Probably the preheating can be ignored for now since the glowplugs are not needed until the weather cools down a lot.

 

To test the turbo pressure regulation and pressure signal, Citroen's procedures say to install a pressure gauge at the pressure sensor (they will have the tools needed) and see how the pressures and turbo perform at certain engine revs and to use a vacuum on the actuator to see how far the wastegate actuator arm moves. Unfortunately the turbo is at the back of the engine so not easy to access, but you could check the actuator pipe for splitting/leaks - similarly the egr valve actuator if it also has a pipe to its actuator (later ones are electric).

[joemac666]

I didnt realise the snapon wasnt up to the job.  Just thinking that given that the car is going into limp mode would that not suggest the turbo pressure sensor is working?  Do you know what a dealer would charge for such tests and am i into big money if its the turbo?

[joemac666]

Just checking, I've the egr blanked off which I'm going to remove but I'm assuming this has no impact on these codes?

[paul.h]

The car goes in to limp mode if there is a fault that affects the emissions from the exhaust and the fault can be anything such as a camshaft sensor, air flow meter, etc. The limp mode allows the car to run with preset parameters so it can be driven home/for repair.

 

I am guessing your engine is the 136 hp 2.2 hdi with an auto gearbox. The egr valve on this has a vacuum actuator from the parts diagrams - so if there is a problem with the vacuum pipe to it (or any of the vacuum pipes) or its actuator had a leak, then maybe it could affect the vacuum to the turbo actuator. However, you may find that once the Citroen diagnostic equipment is used the fault codes may be different, bearing in mind everything started after a wheel alignment and at first you seemed to have esp/asr faults. A quick internet search on esp/asr faults on the C5 comes up with all sorts - one is a problem with the brake light switch and a sign of this was the brake lights not working until the pedal was pushed down a long way.

 

I have no idea of costs but once you explain everything and the full history of the problem and snapon work done (including the steering wheel angle sensor in case it has not been done correctly) to the service manager, you should be given an idea of costs to find the fault cause and then to give a repair.

[joemac666]

The car is indeed a 136bhp 2.2 auto.  Brought it to a guy with a lexia today and was able to establish that the dpf is regenerating and no faults from the egr at all.  After checking everything he thinks the steering wheel sensor is faulty as every time he recalibrated it and cleared the code it came back up as needing calibrated....

 

So need to get the steering sensor fixed and go from there.  He thinks the turbo overboost could possibly be a red herring at this point but he's not ruling anything out at this point but he's right about the wheel sensor being the first thing to do.  I'll keep the thread going and update as I go.  Thanks up to now for all the input guys as it does help.

 

Joe

[paul.h]

The steering wheel angle sensor I believe is built in to the comms 2000 switch unit under the steering wheel - so you probably need the complete unit. They have different part numbers depending on what options are on the car. To get the right one you need to use your VIN in the parts diagrams but they are 6242S and then 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 or possibly 6242T0. As an example http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW-GENUINE-CITROEN-C5-PEUGEOT-407-SALOON-INDICATOR-COMMS-2000-UNIT-6242S6/321387071317?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D23984%26meid%3D8757723369634777811%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D9421%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D360636975117

 

The C5 Haynes manual section 12.5 covers removing/fitting the switch unit.

[joemac666]

I was hoping this was a cheapish part but not so....I'm wondering how this got disturbed doing the wheel alignment, I think I'll need to check that any wires going to it or ok first!  I guess a scrap yard part wont do?  I'll need to get a haynes manual as well.  Is there any sensors that are related that could have been knocked/damaged during the wheel alignment?

[paul.h]

Every wheel hub has an abs sensor with wiring going in to the car. The Haynes manual is worth having anyway but it does not cover the 2.2 hdi engines. For this you will need the Citroen service box from such as ebay.

[paul.h]

Have a read of this post P0235 fault finally fixed by replacing some wiring http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/20606-citroen-c5-engine-problems/

[joemac666]

hmmmm, the faulty wiring thread must have been a nightmare!  I will get it checked ifs thats possible but its hard to understand why the wiring would do this only when the car is under load from the engine....

 

Latest now is I took the car back to kwikfit and they redid the alignment.  The tech guy there who is a citroen master tech spent about an hour with the lexia and he thinks the car needs a turbo and the comms 2000 is not causing limp mode as it only happens under load.  Kwikfit were pretty good with this and redid the alignment and the diagostics and only charged a £10 as I had the alignment done in a different branch at the end of june.  

 

I'm not sure what to do now, different options, get the wiring checked first/go to citroen and get their view/change the comms 2000 anyway/get the smoke test done/get a new turbo or all 5.  Apparently the turbo is prone to failure on these cars.......just thought.....maybe trade it in, problem is I really like the car but cant decide if its worth spending a lot of money on.  

 

 

[paul.h]

If the turbo is prone to failure on the 2.2 hdi, it has not yet been mentioned on this forum. The one that does keep appearing is on the 1.6 hdi engines.

 

If it was my car, I would myself check all the wiring on the car for obvious damage. Then if nothing found I would try my Citroen dealer - the others I would leave since they could be a waste of money until you know what is wrong. Where are you located, there are good reports for the dealer located near Chorley and one in Telford - see the section Questions About Citroen The Company.

[joemac666]

Another question and an update.  Havent had a chance to go to a dealer and just been putting up with the fault but spent some time on the car last week.  Replaced the Map and still the same. Had a smoke test done on vacuum and it was fine.  
 
Bought some fancy MAF cleaner and talk about a difference!  The car has always been sort of sluggish but having not driven another one I thought it was just the size of it but how wrong was I.  The acceleration is fantastic and is sort of like a new car......still getting the esp/asr fault but no where near as regular, can go for a couple of days before i see it but now get depolution fault on screen as soon as i start the car. I havent had the fault codes read in a while and will get this done again next week.  
 
I've been told the vac solenoid could be faulty and was wondering if the pic i've included is it?  There is a c5 the same as mine in the local scappers so should be able to get this part quite cheap and was going to give it ago.  I realise that I need the fault codes but was just going to give this ago anyway.

 

 

Pic is here

><img src="http://www.myalbum.co.uk/Photo-MO3H6WHX-D.jpg" border="0"></a>

Edited October 5, 2014 by joemac666

[paul.h]

There was a post today of an anti pollution fault caused by leaves in the air intake/filter, so something new to consider. I am not sure about the vac solenoid since 2 parts are listed for the gas recycling circuit 1628LQ and 1628HC. If you have not yet registered on the service.citroen site so you can see the parts diagrams as a free service, you can do this as another professional and a member fo the Citroen Owners Club. http://service.citroen.com/do/changerParametres You need to use your VIN (VIS) and look under Mechanical, Engine Emission Control

[joemac666]

Thanks Paul.  Just got time to look at this and the parts that you have listed or not the same as the one in the photo as they only have 2 pipes coming out the top and it looks like there are 3 valves related to the egr?

The one in the pic I attached has 2 at the top and two at the bottom but the guy is not sure if thats the turbo vac solenoid.......i cant find it in the parts diagram.  Just to add I have a blanking plate on my egr at the pipe coming from the top of the engine, i dont think this is causing a problem but really do wonder should i remove it?  I have noticed that since the maf has been cleaned and i replaced the air filter that the engine management light does not come on as well now when i get the fault just the service and esp/asr light.  With all the help and reading I now think its down to a duff turbo which I dont really think it is, the turbo vac solenoid or the particle filter?  I would get the dpf removed in a heartbeat if I was sure that this would cure it but I dont have the money to do that and then be told its the turbo if the fault continues.  Thanks for everyones help so far btw.

 

I've also got a heat problem lol but I'll do a new post for that.  Strange thing about all this is I love the car lol and would like to keep it but dont want a huge bill of a new turbo hopefully.  If I could identify what this valve does and its worth a shot I'd get one and stick it in.

[joemac666]

Just thought I'd add that there is a bush that need replaced, I believe its the passenger side wishbone which is gone and when i brake theres a thud, so theres more play in the road wheel?  This is getting replaced for the mot in a few weeks but I just wondered would this have anything to do with the wheel alignment and steering sensor which can cause esp/asr?  Probably not as it would cause the "fault" more often?

[paul.h]

On the parts diagrams the egr valve can be found under Mechanical/Engine/Emission Control/Gas Recycling Circuit.

 

Whilst it may seem like a good idea to remove the dpf, this is no longer allowed and your car would fail the MOT and the insurance would not be vailid. There is a pinned topic on this which you have probably read.

 

Have a look at the Technical section pinned Common Problems post for heating problems - not cooling with the air con and one side not having temperature control are covered.