A Little Worried - C15 Van Vacuum Pump Knocking Noise - Timing Belt

[Ratt]

Hi to everyone...I would appreciate some feedback on the concerns I have about the slight knocking sound that comes from my old c15 van (dw8) after just putting a new timing belt on it. The van starts and runs very well (cold or hot), but both me and the mechanic can't work out why this knock is there. The van's only done 78,000 miles and was not like this before the belt change.

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Maybe something is loose such as the crankshaft pulley. From rpo 10064 the crankshaft pulley bolt is tightened to 70 Nm then by a further 60° and loctite is used. Also it looks as if it is a vibration damper type so maybe it suffered during removal and is due for replacement. Prior to this the pulley is held by 4 bolts but a torque value is not given.

[Ratt]

This one must be the earlier type that is held by 4 small bolts. Do you think it's possible that the pump timing is out and the motor could still start and run very well. We did have a bitch of a problem getting the belt onto the cam and pump.

[Johndouglas]

Do you think it's possible that the pump timing is out

After you'd fitted the belt, did you turn the engine over a couple of times then refit the timing pins? If you slide a 6mm rod into the flywheel so that it's at TDC, you should then be able to screw an 8mm bolt through the camshaft sprocket and also a 6mm rod into the head through the pump sprocket. If you can fit all three, then the timing is correct.

[Ratt]

We did turn the motor over a couple of times, and the belt pulled up squarely around all points. Also all the timing positions seemed good, but strangely enough I've just got back from a shortish journey where the brakes packed up---no servo pressure, and on a bit of a look drips of oil from the vacuum pump (I think it is) bolted on cam end, which spray back onto the servo unit. And it also seems to me that the rattling noise is coming from the injector pump/camshaft area

[Johndouglas]

We did have a bitch of a problem getting the belt onto the cam and pump.

On the DW engines the belt fitting should be started on the crank pulley then anti clockwise over the idler, the fuel pump, the camwheel, followed by water pump and finally the tensioner. Before fitting the belt the retaining bolts in the sprockets should be loose enough to allow the sprockets to move within the slots with the starting point being with the sprockets turned fully anti-clockwise. After tensioning the belt, the sprockets should be checked to see that the securing bolts are not at the ends of their slots. If they are, the belt fitting should be done again. Even if they are in a correct position, the bolts should be loosened and then the belt's tension checked again before finally tightening the six bolts.

[Ratt]

Do you think this sequence of positioning of the belt has any bearing on the problem I have with the vacuum pump. it seems odd to me that the motor starts and runs really well, but this rattling noise is there......Then the vacuum pump starts leaking and the brakes pack up. Is it possible to get a vacuum pump from a breakers and have any success with the seal back onto the cam end

[Johndouglas]

It seems odd that the vacuum pump is giving problems so soon after changing the cambelt. Were it mine I'd be taking off the front cover and checking the sprockets and timing fixtures.

[paul.h]

To help, the vacuum pump Citroen part no. is 456542 and there are 2 O-ring seals, 455605 and 455606 but it would be better to check these using your VIN. From citroencarparts.net the pump is £165 and the seals about £1 each but may be included with a new pump. I suspect these seals are just to stop oil leaks and would not be to keep the vacuum and that the pump will have an internal shaft seal for this.

 

Was there any end play in the camshaft, just seems a bit of a coincidence the vac pump seal fails after the belt is changed ? You may need to check for oil in the brake servo hose.

[Ratt]

Looking back on the situation with the vacuum pump, it may be that there has been a small problem with it for some time before the belt change, as the brakes have been spongy for a while. Also the face of the servo unit has been 'greasy'. I'll drop the vacuum pump out to check on it, and go over the timing positions again.

[Ratt]

So more news from me. The vacuum pump is very simply removed, and out fell the broken 'dog' that drives off the cam end. The pump is from magnett marrelli. I've phoned around all the local breakers today but have so far had no luck. Does anyone know where I can contact for this item, prefferably a used one. And surely this is what has been causing the noise problems I've been having.

[paul.h]

There are a couple of used ones on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcitroen+part+456542&_nkw=citroen+part+456542&_sacat=0

[Ratt]

Ok...I'll try on e-bay...do you know if these vacuum pumps are all the same for dw8 motors

[paul.h]

A quick look at the parts diagrams shows that vacuum pump 456542 is used on the dw8 engines on other cars such as the Xsara and Berlingo. It is also used on other engine models. You can see the parts diagrams as a free service on the service.citroen site if you register as another professional non emergency services and a member of the Citroen Owners Club. The vacuum pump appears under Mechanical / Braking / Brake servo. http://service.citroen.com/pages/index.jsp

There are some on ebay listed for the Berlingo which may fit http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_odkw=citroen+berlingo+1.9+diesel+pump&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xcitroen+berlingo+1.9+brake+vacuum+pump&_nkw=citroen+berlingo+1.9+brake+vacuum+pump&_sacat=0

[Ratt]

Been trolling through ebay etc....all available seem a little different, mine is from the magnetti marrelli company. the pump is good, only the drive dog is broken

[paul.h]

I would not worry too much about the make, you will find they will be sourced from many companies. Apparently there was a recall on magneti marrelli vacuum pumps due to the drive dog breaking in 2000 http://www.theaa.com/allaboutcars/recalls/recalls.jsp?&makeName=Citroen&modelID=Xsara&modelName=Xsara&makeId=A7&lowIndex=3

 

You could look on the eurocarparts site and see what part no. it comes up with (under braking / vacuum pump) and see what other cars have the same part no. to help with your scrap yard/ebay search. I had a quick look but do not know the model year apart from the dw8 engine was produced from 1998 according to wikipedia.

 

This new one for £117 on ebay is listed for your van and includes other cars http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-BERLINGO-C15-DISPATCH-XSARA-1-9D-DIESEL-1998-NEW-BRAKE-VACUUM-PUMP-/121320090307?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Model%3ABerlingo&hash=item1c3f3daac3

[Ratt]

Jesus I was freaked for a while, thought I was going to be in sh...street. but hopefully tomorrow a used BOSCH replacement will arrive from autocraft for £33 all in with postage. I am assured that the oil seals are still good and cross my fingers it's true. Are there any photo's available of the camshaft and injector pump in the locked position on the 2002 dw8 engine. I have read that the cam locks in a 7 o clockish position, but where exactly does the pump lock. Also on my one only the cam sprocket looks to have slotted holes to turn clockwise, the pump sprocket doesn't look to be slotted at all

[Johndouglas]

Cam sprocket timing hole is at 4 oclock approx using an 8mm bolt. The pump sprocket is at 12 - 1 o'clock with a 6mm rod. Both should line up after a 6mm rod has been popped into the flywheel hole at TDC. Both sprockets should have elongated holes for adjustment. I don't have a DW8 picture but here's a picture of a TUD engine which is same layout as DW8 and is timed the same way. Both sprockets have slotted holes - although the bolt heads cover the slots.

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i53/Johndug/Belt005.jpg[/url]

[Ratt]

The mad trial is over...I checked over the timing positions and fitted a new water pump just to be sure.  Bolted on the replacement Bosch vacuum pump, and away she went, with a wonderful quiet ticking sound. All the noise from before was the broken lug on the drive dog of the pump, which of course transfered along the cam and made the injector pump sound lousy. This last week has been a learning curve supreme, which has taught me that maybe replacement belt is probably a job for non-proffesssionals to attempt only with the engine out. It can be done, but christ, it is always so close to failure that there's a total sense of relief when it's done.

[Johndouglas]

maybe replacement belt is probably a job for non-proffesssionals to attempt only with the engine out.

Congratulations!

 

Don't let a difficult first time put you off. Second and future times will be easier as you learn from previous experiences, but yes - there's not much room to work in a transverse engine bay.

[Ratt]

Getting the belt over all the pulleys is difficult, but then getting tension on the thing and being able to lock it in position at the same time, well skin of the teeth stuff.

[Johndouglas]

getting tension on the thing and being able to lock it in position at the same time,

Agreed! The DW engines were developed from the XUD, and they were much easier. On those the tensioning was done automatically. Once it was settled in position, all that needed doing was to lock it.

[Ratt]

A little tip for anyone one who is trying a cambelt job on this motor with the engine in, is, ok, fit the belt anticlockwise from the crank to idler to injector pump to cam (with these having the slotted holes loose). Now this is where I discovered my trick was the only way out. From the cam it really was better (because of the tightness of the belt), to fit the belt FIRST around the water pump, and having the bolt of the manual adjuster ((on the 2002 model it is manual) almost all the way out, it was only doing it this way that the belt was long enough using the wobblyness of the adjuster on it's very loose bolt, to slip it around the back of the adjuster. Tension belt, tighten the adjuster and slotted hole bolts, remove timing lock pins, turn over the crank e.t.c. And say a million yippees, then go for four pints of Abbot Ale and look back on a difficult job well done.