Mk1 Hdi Fuel Pump!

[dave_m citc5]

hi,1st time on here have got a problem with my mk1 c5,2002 lx been good for last 6 years has got 114,000 on but wont start was a bit noisy from front and got a bit louder then mamagement light came on then nothing got it home am thinking its fuel pump(either pump in tank+sender or high pressure pump) +clutch has'nt got much life left either so will have to price both up (have seen a c5 estate 2.0vtr hdi 60,000 on 07plate    but dealer wanting £4,000 ouch a bit pricey!!!) any ideas you guys know what your about i am a c5 convert not keen on looking at anything else 

many thanks again

davy.

[coastline taxis]

your first step has to be a diagnostic on the car  could be something as simple as a fuse.  Intank pump check is a quick one to rule out just sit in the car making sure everything is switched of and all is quiet. lift up back seat  and remove round plastic cover. switch ignitition on and you should hear the intank pump prime itself for 5 or s6 seconds. try that and get back to us.  re the other c5  if its in good condition and your happy with it then go for it

[dave_m citc5]

your first step has to be a diagnostic on the car  could be something as simple as a fuse.  Intank pump check is a quick one to rule out just sit in the car making sure everything is switched of and all is quiet. lift up back seat  and remove round plastic cover. switch ignitition on and you should hear the intank pump prime itself for 5 or s6 seconds. try that and get back to us.  re the other c5  if its in good condition and your happy with it then go for it

will do,am of work with gall bladder out at min soon as am back up to strength will try that hopefully that might do it as it looks like the cheapest route before high pressure pump the mk 2 is in good nick if i can get mk1 going with no probs could trade it in!! will let you know thanks again cheers davy.

[dave_m citc5]

hi,have tried all fuses all ok(bar maxi ones) no joy, tried in tank pump, cover of under seat nothing no noise of pump priming itself so maybe thats the culprit although i have took battery out for charging as theres juice for starter and it's turning motor over but nothing else e/w's wont move radio wont come on,fan wont blow!!!also i notice the belt is looking frayed in a few places wasn't there a post on here about having to replace these pulleys any ideas !!! much appreciated

thanks again

cheers davy.

[paul.h]

Which engine is your car, 2 litre hdi from your other post but is it 90 or 110 bhp ?

 

If the car is in eco mode, things like the radio will not work until the engine is run again (even after you charge the battery) so there is no need to worry about these. This is a Citroen/Peugeot thing to prevent the battery going flat and cuts in after the engine is stopped after a few minutes or more if something is being used but the time taken depends on the battery voltage. If the battery does not have a good charge it will not turn the engine over fast enough for it to start, I may have read somewhere it needs something like 300 rpm to start.

 

Before deciding if you need a new fuel pump/tank level sender unit, you should check for voltage at the pump. The wiring diagram in the RTA C5 manual gives the pump fuse as F2 (30 amp according to Haynes manual) in the engine fuse box which takes its feed through a relay direct from the battery so no maxi fuses involved apart from ones to the ignition switch and bsi. At the pump the positive feed is shown as wire no. 1235 and its earth as M1235 but this can vary. You still need to get the fault code read though since this should save guessing what is wrong.

[dave_m citc5]

ok,my motor is a 90 bhp c5 looks like i will have to start getting a reader any ideas!! the car is in eco-mode will get battery charged up then i notice fuse for the pump f2 is showing 15a in owners manual but 30amp in haynes where would i get a reader and how much as i dont want to get a auto spark to check 1 thing as i will probably need  these readers in the future anyway hopefully can get this thing running within a week or two as i fancy getting a mk2 thats up for sale all depends what this mk 1 needs,

ok thanks again paul

much appreciated

davy.

[paul.h]

This code reader from Gendan looks good value at £38.95 and it does some live data which is useful. However, you will need to check with them if it will do your car since diesel EOBD was only required from 2004 http://www.gendan.co.uk/product_FXNT200.html

Go by your handbook for the fuse since Haynes tries to cover all cars and will not always be correct.

 

Where are you located ? Some members have said they may be able to help with diagnostic checks - see this pinned post http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/20345-diagnostic-help/

[dave_m citc5]

will do, am up in central scotland musselburgh outside edinburgh but will enquire about reader if any probs will let you know 

thanks again.

[dave_m citc5]

hi,have had no luck with that code reader as it doesnt cover my 2002 hdi mk1 the only thing they have that would do is a foxwell nt 600 hand held  which has 4 functions and covers my car @£155 what do you think have any ideas

much appreciated

ta davy.

[paul.h]

If you do not mind spending so much it seems ok and is similar to one I bought about 5 years ago covering Citroen/Peugeot/Renault as well as all cars with EOBD - a Sealey VS863. Having the abs and airbag coverage is useful. On the Sealey one though the live data has to be seen as EOBD (although I have not checked it on a pre EOBD car) so you would need to check that this would cover live data for your car. The Sealey one had a promise of updates but since it is no longer available from Sealey, updates are not available so Citroens from 2009 are only covered as EOBD and the Citroen specific codes on these cars are not covered.

 

However, for £155 you could pay a dealer to find your current fault and have change for any parts (or  a low cost reader for your next car). Whilst a code reader may give you a good indication on what repairs are needed, if more than the basic live data is needed to find the fault then a dealer type of diagnostic may still be needed. Copies of the dealer Lexia can be bought for around £100 to put on a lap top and this could be a better buy and some members on this forum have done this.

[dave_m citc5]

ok,have just ordered that reader as i will need a reader at some point as i am hoping to get a mk2/3 c5 once this mk1's running as i will probably have to get a in tank pump/sender (as no noise from pump once battery charged up and put back in) hopefully it's not high pressure pump just waiting on reader and see what it says any ideas vice mk2/3 again much appreciated

ta

davy.

[coastline taxis]

go to under bonnet fuse box  and youle see 3 multi plugs going into it. remove middle plug and on the left hand bank of terminals check the 3 or 4th one up for burning as ive seen quite a few burn out. if burnt put multiplug back on and gently tap it while someone turns the key and see if car starts

[dave_m citc5]

hi again thanks for info have tried that multiplug it;s ok no probs there have got that reader it came up with p1164(sensor test; fuel pressure too low after ignition switch off/fuel pressure too high after ignition switch off) have cleared said code but it is still showing code p0341 which could still be another sensor!!! still not getting nothing coming from in tank pump ie;priming itself do you think i should try in tank pump and try and get 1 need to be getting this motor running soon or may have to cut my losses where would i get 1 euro c/parts probably as i noticed the auxilary belt looks like it's starting to look a bit frayed maybe the pulley any advice would be much appreciated 

many thanks again for you're help

davy.

[paul.h]

From the Petrol Diesel & LPG section fault code lists, it gives;

P0341 Camshaft Position Sensor Circuit Range/Performance

 

We had one of the two cam shaft sensors fail on our C3 but it still managed to run in limp mode, I could clear the fault code (similar to this code but was for the exhaust sensor) and then it would come back when the engine was started. You will only have one camshaft sensor so may be it will need replacing before the car will start. A new one from the dealer for the C3 was about £23 and it included the o-ring seal. I would use a dealer for the part to make sure you get the right one against your VIN but it might be part no. 1920QN.

 

It is possible the P1164 code may be the result of the camshaft sensor failing and there may not be a fuel fault.

 

It looks as if the cam sensor is near the oil filler cap, you could check its electrical resistance to see if it has failed - from memory, on ours across 2 of the 3 pins there was an open circuit, but on the new one there was a resistance across all of the pins.

[dave_m citc5]

ok paul, thanks again will get sensor checked and replaced if need be certainly will be cheapest option hope high pressure fault 'fuel' doesnt come back though will keep you all  posted!

many thanks

davy.

[dave_m citc5]

hi again thanks for info had cleared that code p0341 and still wouldnt go as other code reappeared p1164'fuel pressure'  had the feed checked to in-tank pump and there is power getting to multiplug but nothing on plug pump and theres not a whisper coming from pump once ignition on  was thinking could i run fresh fuel via a small pump of pipe from fuel filter just to see if it will fire up then i'll know it's definetely in tank pump it certainly sounds like this pump though!noticed auxilary belt looking  a bit frayed as if been caught on something  i think there was something on here about pulleys going!!causing belt to wear any info on these would be much appreciated ps been offered to look at a mondeo diesel+ petrol  OH DEAR!! DONT THINK SO no desperate yet

thanks again

davy.

[paul.h]

When the petrol pump failed on a Saab I had, the RAC squirted easy start into the inlet on the engine side of the air filter and the engine ran for a while (then he checked for power to the pump which was ok so diagnosed a pump fault and after replacing it the car worked) - so this may be easier than making a new fuel supply.

 

If you use your code reader on live data you may get a reading for the fuel pressure.

 

The crankshaft pulley may be a damped type with a rubber insert which can fail. I have read on here that they can give a knocking/tapping noise when they fail. Also any other pulleys should be checked since they may not last forever and are probably plastic with a bearing which if spun without the belt on would give an indication if they need replacing. On some engines the bolt holding the pulley on may tighten when being undone due to loctite and has to be slackened/tightened to gradually undo it or risk the bolt snapping or some carefully applied heat may help.

This is copied from the Technical section Common Problems pinned topic:

21. Crankshaft pulley failure.

This has been reported on a 2.2 hdi 136 bhp engine but can happen on other engines. Symptoms are a tapping noise from low down on the engine but may initially be thought to be a worn/sticking tappet. The noise increases with engine revs. The pulley is an anti vibration type which can separate and need replacing - it is possible to fit a solid type - approx cost at a garage is £200 including a new auxiliary drive belt.

 

 

 

Fords are ok if you like welding.

[coastline taxis]

the intank pumps are under 50 quid at motorist shops. if you near the tyne and wear area ive got one you can try

[dave_m citc5]

thanks guys much appreciated have ordered 1from euro, aftermarket 1just over £50 so will try that i think that will@ least get fuel moving from tank to h/p pump and i'll see how i go from there will keep you posted thanks paul/coastline ps am up in scotland just outside edinburgh but thanks anyway will let you know

thanks 

davy.

[coastline taxis]

when the intank pump goes down you will get a rail pressure/pump  fault aswell as its not geting any fuel. these will go once they get diesel in

[dave_m citc5]

hi guys back again just been a bit hectic recently thanks for info tho have now got in-tank pump out and new one in and it is now priming itself so ok there have tried a few times to start and tried the hand pump a few times but the battery gave up so am charging it up and will try again with hand pump and i will check for any codes that need clearing prior to trying to get it going hopefully it will get fuel once air is out!! am assuming thats the only way  will start ie;hand pump and starter to get fuel moving

and a wee bit of advice also am looking at a few c5's mk 2's (06' 2.hdi vtr 73,000 man,07 2.2 hdi vtx 78,000 man,06 2.hdi exclusive estate 59,000,man,06'2.hdi exclusive auto 34,000!!!) as i am wanting to get a bit newer auto looks ok with mileage but i don't know about autos!! the estate looks ok as i am also thinking of mileage ie;clutch,dmf,particulate filter/fluid all costing give me your thoughts what do you think!!once again thanks again guys

davy.

[paul.h]

I would look at them all, decide if you prefer an estate or hatchback and then buy on condition/service history and likely immediate costs such as new tyres/any existing problems. Look at the Common Problems pinned post for some things to check but ideally make sure everything works and there are no suspension fluid leaks, creaks from the rear suspension and the rear wheels do not lean in at the top (possible rear arm bearings need replacing)

 

They will all have a dpf but you need to make sure it has not been removed since it would then fail the MOT. At about 70k miles the dpf will need replacing/cleaning and the eolys fluid topping up, so if not done then you need to allow a few hundred pounds for this. The exhaust tail pipe on our cars that have a dpf has been clean metal internally - if you see one that is black with soot then suspect the dpf has been removed.

 

The VTX will have a sat nav which I find useful but it may not have up to date maps unless paid for at a dealer. Mine is still on the 2007 maps and these are still ok since not many new roads are built and then I can always use a nearby one that is on the maps.

 

The auto will give poor fuel economy (39 mpg combined) and has the potential for high bills if it has problems and it will cost more in tax (£265 vs £180). The 2.0 hdi will have the best fuel economy (47 mpg combined) but the 2.2 hdi will not be too far behind (45 mpg combined).

 

I went from a mark 1 hatchback to a mark 2 estate (2.2 hdi VTX) and prefer it to a hatchback although it is a bit longer.

 

If you are going to be towing a caravan the 2.2 hdi has the highest kerb weight.

[dave_m citc5]

thanks for that paul, will take your thoughts am edging towards the 06 2.0 exclusive estate 59,000mi/06 2.0vtr 73,000 as both give me a wee bit of scope before dpf'to many probs with auto maybe'  as i need to move on with  this only got 6/7days to see both make a decision and get the car as am of in a week and need it then dont want to rush it re;mk1 battery's been on charge for 2 days will have to check wi multimeter whether battery/charger still not showing charged probably battery!!! cant really look at it till tues to much work on 

thanks again keep you posted

davy.

[dave_m citc5]

guys:thanks again for everything you've all been great unfortunately the mark1 c5 got hit while parked up so that was the end of that and i couldnt source a decent 1 quick enough so picked up mk3 mondeo 02 citreon is far better than 07 ford how!!!! will see next year still fancy mk2/3 with proper suspension/hdi that 1 had character will still be on from time to time to see whats happening on the c5 front once again thanks for everything.cheers.d.