C5 Hdi 1.6 Garrett Gt1544V Turbo - Return Oil Fouling

[jonnie45]

Hello

 

An appeal for advice please.

 

My C5 (II) HDi 1.6 with Garrett GT1544V turbo has had recent problems with smoke apparently from the hot side of the turbo although not 100% of exact location of smoke outlet sure since heat shield was on at the time, definitely not the clean air side.

 

Given the age of my car (2005) and horror stories around the turbo I decided that I would at least do an investigative look before the bills start coming in.

 

I have removed the turbo.

 

The exhaust side and clean air side of the turbo (interior of ports) are as follows.

 

Exhaust side, very fine soot but no gunk, not oily but dry - since the fault was smoking on the exhaust side then this may be recent and it may well be a result of the problem not the root cause.

 

Clean air side, thin oil layer on inside but absolutely no gunk.

 

The blades turn without resistance, it feels like a smooth bearing action, I am treating the blades very gently, nothing to suggest to me excessive wear on the bearings, when the engine last ran the turbo did not make any unhealthy sounds even with the inlet air port quickly and carefully taken off for a 2 second listen.

 

All the flexible breather pipes that were removed as part of the turbo removal are clean aside from a thin film of oil on inner walls - no gunk.

 

The bad news is on the oil return, pipe had sticky gunk in it.

 

I don't have much information about the oil inlet pipe right now but the fact that the turbo has not seized and was burning oil suggests that oil was getting to it.

 

What I am trying to weigh up now is what the likely level of clean out will be and whether I am up to it, I have seen suggestions of partial engine dismantle to remove gunk.

 

Take the optimistic side and assume that I find only the oil return pipe is fouled with gunk, does this offer any hope that the clean up operation might be confined to a relatively small number of areas?

 

My logic might be faulty but I am assuming here that some kind of seal failure and excess oil burning might have caused the gunk build up in the return oil that has not found its way entirely around the system. Is there any optimism to be had if it turns out that the gunk is not present in the oil inlet so that only the outlet is fouled. The outlet was badly fouled lets say 90% but the crud could be removed with a tooth pick it was not hard but more like sticky flexible plastic oily crud.

 

Any suggestions or opinions welcome, its an older car 2005, I am trying to avoid pro bills at least until I have localised and understood the problem, I dont want an open ended garage bills as then it would be better to junk the car. If the gunk issue can be resolved easily by a DIY'er then I would probably refit the new turbo and pipes myself since I have already managed the dismantle.

 

Thanks

Jonnie

 

Quick Tip - needed flat ring spanner for turbo bolts,on all of mine the ring cantered to 10 degrees or so. Rang around for flat ring spanners locally - nothing. Eventually took a mallet ( wearing goggles ) to one of my ring spanners and put a bend in the handle which gave me the right angle and access and leverage I needed. Open spanner would have stripped the corners off the bolts as they were very solidly stuck.

Edited August 18, 2016 by jonnie45

[paul.h]

In the oil supply pipe there is a filter mesh that should be removed and not replaced. When refitting this pipe the banjos have to be held whilst bolts are tightened to prevent the pipe/banjo twisting. The oil return pipe should be replaced (or at least cleaned out). An oil/filter change could be done and if there is no play in the turbo bearings you may want to refit it and see how you get on, but see if anyone else provides any advice. If the turbo bearings are worn you can get replacement cartridges and there is a topic by citrophile who has done this a couple of times.

[coastline taxis]

The biggest cause of these turbo,s to fail is lack of oil changes and heat soak. The 1st is self explanatory the second is caused by the design of the turbo and a simple mistake that most people make. There isn't a bearing that fits tightly between the cartridge and the casing . there is a gap in the thousands of a millimetre this gap is filled with engine oil and in theory the turbo can run forever as no wear will occur due to a supply of fresh oil. However these turbo,s have to work really hard and run very hot. if they are switched of when hot then the oil that sits between the bearing suffers from heat soak were the oil soaks up the heat and starts to burn. This creates carbon deposits which then contaminates the oil system. Do as paul suggests and  remove the filter in the feed pipe then give the engine a oil change and  a flush. when you've finished a long/hard journey let the engine idle for a min before switching it of as this allows the oil to cool and stops the burning. Hopefully you've caught it in time and a few flushes will clean it for you. Have you just bought the car or had it a while so that you know the history of the turbo/engine

[jonnie45]

Paul, Coastline

 

I am very grateful to you both, coastline's description of the 'oil bearing' is just what I needed to help the parts of the problem fit together iin my mind.

 

I have only had the car one year, I am a very low mileager ( probably 7K) - light right foot - and the oil and filter were changed according to the service record in the year before I bought the car.

 

Its seems to me that given the tiny diameter of the pressurised inlet port that similar gunk in the inlet would have surely resulted in blockage even with the oil being pumped, secondly the smoke showed no sign of abating suggesting fresh oil is coming in to burn and finally the turbo has not seized or failed catastrophically. It looks to me as if the unit is receiving adequate oil it just has a problem disposing of it hence (some of) it escapes through the bearing gap and ignites.

 

If the turbo is not the victim of general engine gunk but rather the victim of its own private production of gunk then I am hoping that the quantities involved are smaller than would be expected from a poorly functioning engine and that the gunk has coalesced in the outlet but not made it much further.

 

There is still the issue of why gunk in the first place, coastline has indicated driver habits and the heat soaking of the oil but my thought here is that an older turbo might produce more gunk, perhaps due to wear in those 'oil bearings' really this is all about the question "suppose I replace and clean whats to suggest it wont start all over again?"

 

Taking this into account I am thinking along the lines now of a diy fit hopefully costing under 400 which I can live with.

 

1. fit a remanufactured turbo after first getting assurances regards tolerances in the 'oil bearing' area - I am relying (gambling?) on a remanufactured unit being less likely to produce the gunk than my old unit.

 

2. fit new inlet and outlet oil pipes following advice about the strainer in the inlet.

 

3. oil and filter change with a flush.

 

4. adjust driver habits

 

I suppose if I am feeling really brave then the really sensible thing to do would be to do an inspection of the outlet pipe after say 5,000 miles and then check that the new oil outlet shows no signs of fouling.

 

Thanks again Paul and Coastline I feel I am in with a chance of resolving this.I will post any useful findings during the coming work as these case histories are hopefully useful to others.

Edited August 19, 2016 by jonnie45

[paul.h]

I am not sure if correct, but are you saying the engine oil/filter was last changed 2 years ago and you have done about 14k miles since then ?

 

The gunk could be the result of not using the correct oil and not changing it often enough and if the oil changes were done by sucking the old oil out then any thick oil/sludge could be left behind. Other engines suffer from this and if you dismantle an engine there will likely be thick oil/paste stuck inside various parts and if you want you could remove the sump and clean it out. On the 1.6 hdi the oil should be changed every 12k miles (or 2 years if sooner or brave enough to risk 2 years) whereas other Citroen engines are 20k miles or 2 years if sooner. Citroen reduce these frequencies for arduous use which is short trips to 10k miles or 1 year if sooner.

 

Coastline's comment about letting the engine idle so the turbo can cool and slow down before switching the engine off (which then stops the oil flow to the turbo) is usually mentioned in the car handbooks and is normal practice for any turbo car.

[jonnie45]

Hi Paul

 

I think there is indeed around 14K since last oil and filter change.

 

I have just read an article elsewhere regards removing the sump as opposed to just draining it because dependent on design a reasonable amount of crud may remain due to the design the sump so I am adding a remove and clean sump to my list.

 

I dont think I am brave enough to go inside the engine just yet but since I am now familiar with the turbo removal and all that goes with it I think I will opt for oil+filter change at the time of turbo replacement followed by a very premature follow up oil and filter after only few thousand miles . I am also thinking in terms of monitoring the turbo inlet and outlet hose/pipes by dismantle and inspection once or maybe even twice in the coming months - it took me a day to remove the particle filter, shroud and turbo the first time but this was mainly due to stuborn bolts and access problems which I resolved by bending a ring spanner - I am hoping I can get it down to a matter of hours for the planned inspection.

Edited August 19, 2016 by jonnie45

[MikeLane]

Re: letting engine idle after a run.... It's a good idea to let the engine idle for a short while after starting so the oil has a chance to lubricate the turbo.

[paul.h]

For the correct oil look in your handbook but it could be Total INEO ECS 5w/30. A dealer will sell this for about £40 for 5 litres but it can be bought for a lot less online.

[jonnie45]

For the correct oil look in your handbook but it could be Total INEO ECS 5w/30. A dealer will sell this for about £40 for 5 litres but it can be bought for a lot less online.

 

 

Thanks Paul,

 

"lot less online" - I would always want to get it at the best price of course but at the same time since its 40 for the oil, maybe 400 for me to do the job myself and I am sure a 1000 for a dealer to do it - given that oil age/quality/cleanliness is at the heart of the issue it seems to be the cheapest but most important single item (plus filter). I must confess with previous cars when I was younger and less bothered had eyed up the cheap stuff in the supermarket but increasingly I am thinking that oil is the one bill we should be happy to pay for.

 

I wonder if it would be useful/interesting to ask the diy experts on these forums to list parts and consumables according to the "payback factor" in other words a comparision of how cheap (easy) the item is but how expensive neglecting it can be.

 

Presumably oil and filter would make it to the top five. Seriously it might make a good check list for novice self maintainers although I am sure that the experts on this forum already have that list burned deep into their consciousness and need no reminder.

Edited August 20, 2016 by jonnie45

[coastline taxis]

Regardless of what the manufacturer says theres no way on earth you want to leave the oil in for 2years/14k. Change it at least once a year or before it reaches 6k and always use a flushing agent

[ESL57]

I would remove the sump. Surprising what may be in there and if there is much gunge, then it will contaminate your new oil quickly.

  A tube of RTV silicone for a new sump gasket, so a cheap job really.

[jonnie45]

I would remove the sump. Surprising what may be in there and if there is much gunge, then it will contaminate your new oil quickly.

  A tube of RTV silicone for a new sump gasket, so a cheap job really.

Hi, yes thanks the sump is on my list - thats for the gasket info.

 

I am speculatively eyeing up the oil filter unit since its now right in front on me and easy access, any idea whether this is a sensible and easy thing to add to my list. Of course I am already going to be changing the filter I mean cleaning out the whole unit with the cooling fins.

 

 As mentioned earlier I am not sure I have the confidence to start pulling the engine apart, on the other hand I am in a "nothing to lose" scenario and certainly pulling off items that are relatively easy seems worth it to me.

Edited August 21, 2016 by jonnie45

[Smerflet]

If removing the sump then it's worth taking the strainer/dip tube off the oil pump and checking that out too. I think PSA recommend changing this along with the oil feed pipe to the turbo, but that seems excessive to me: a good clean through ought to suffice.

[aspire_helen]

Hi folks

I thought I would mention, again, that when I dismantled the cylinder head of my 2.2HDi, following a failed cambelt at circa 70K miles, the inlet ducting/swirl chambers/valve stems etc were absolutely caked in thick, oily, sooty "sludge" 2-3mm thick.  The internals (eg rockers, camshafts, oilways) were all perfectly clean.   In addition, there was a thick black syrup at the lowest part of the broad plastic air duct (under the engine)  from the turbo air pressure outlet.  I concluded that this "syrup" was thickened or dried engine oil.  The "sludge" appeared to have resulted from this oily air mixing with the recirculated exhaust gasses. 

Since rebuilding the head, now 90K miles ago, i periodically inspect the air inlet ducting with an endoscope.  Although on occasion there is some engine oil film, there has been no more "sludge" or "syrup".

I concluded that, at some point, for some reason, significant engine oil had got into the inlet ducting downstream from the turbo (or the turbo itself), but had then stopped.  I wondered whether overfilling the engine oil could have caused this - one dealer did significantly overfill it on a service, but I did nothing about it. 

Of course, another concern would be oil from the turbo. I inspected the turbo as best I could - the vanes rotated freely, but ever since the rebuild the acceleration feels much reduced, although mpg economy is excellent. 

 

So I have a question, if the turbo were not to be working properly what would be the symptoms, and is there a simple check?  I say simple because as the engine is running "OK" and returning excellent mpg I do not feel the need to spend significant money or effort.

 

PS I  cannot link the cambelt failure to the sludged cylinder head.  The cambelt failed because its inner edge was wearing away on the flange of the crankshaft pulley - ie the belt was being pulled towards the engine.  It failed when it had worn from its original approx 25mm to 16mm wide.  This would imply one of the pulleys was misaligned but everything was mounted correctly with no play in any shaft or pulley.  On fitting a new cambelt it did the same, so I have monitored the wear and found I need to replace the cambelt every 25,000 miles or so, when it gets to 20mm or so - I am now an expert!!!  However, recently the wear rate has very much reduced - perhaps the crankshaft pulley flange has been polished to a mirror!!

 

PPS Another associated issue was that I discovered one of the fuel injector's copper sealing washers  had been leaking exhaust gasses.  The area around the rocker cover and the injector bore was caked in rockhard carbon, and it took 2 days of patient work to extract the injector.  Again, I cannot think of a link with the cambelt failure.

 

If anyone can link these faults I would be very interested!!!

[paul.h]

I have not done an engine decoke for years but petrol engines suffer from a carbon build up on the air inlet side so I would expect a diesel to be the same. This is probably from the engine breathing system that recycles gases to the air inlet and also the egr valve recycling exhaust gases as well as any oil that gets through the turbo. It may be your egr valve is not opening or it has blocked with carbon.

 

A turbo check could be the engine rpm and the boost pressure measurement. You have probably already done this but look to see if the swirl flap diaphragm is working and the plastic cup connection has not broken.

[aspire_helen]

Thanks Paul.  Yes, as Ive posted before, Ive found the swirl connector detached twice with no noticeable effect on performance - it is now wired on.  Regarding EGR valve. It was clean and working when I rebuilt the cylinder head.  I was tempted to blank off the EGR return feed to the air inlet and would have done so if I had found oily soot deposits again, but as I have not I will leave well alone, even if the EGR valve is coked shut (ie the same effect as blanking its output)

[ESL57]

I wonder AH, if your crank damper pulley is running eccentric, or seated fully home. I know mine is quite close but not touching.