Steering Wheel Vibrates Like Electric Saw From Cold Start

[arak81]

Hi Guys,

 

In the morning when I start the car steering wheel vibrates like I am holding an electric saw.  In fact its not only steering wheel, whole cockpit vibrates. this vibration goes off when i press on gas and engine becomes warm. when the car is on run, no vibration at all. so in a word car only vibrates from morning cold start which it even didn't do last week. It can not be the engine mounts as the vibration occurs only morning cold start. is there any idea?

 

I have no Laxia3 to get the live data..but with maxiscan i have found an option to get freeze data..i am uploading them here if they can be any good to anybody to understand the potential problem with my C4 1.6hdi hatchback 2006.

[paul.h]

The freeze frame data shown seems to be when the displayed fault code P1351 (glow plugs) happened which I guess may have been when the car was last started. Before the first engine start of the day, you could do with deleting the fault code and then start the car again without touching the accelerator pedal, then stop it and seeing if the code and data is stored again. Also note the outside temperature.

 

I think the load is the throttle position which might be high when the engine is at idle - shown as 765 rpm - for a cold diesel engine I do not know if 765 rpm is right but if it was a petrol one the rpm is usually raised on idle until it has warmed up a bit.

ETC will be the engine coolant temp which at 17°C may or may not be right depending on when the engine was previously run if it has not fully cooled down.

MAP is the manifold pressure and at 99 kpa is about right for idle speed - it will go up when the turbo starts.

VSS is vehicle speed - at 0 km/h the car was not moving.

MAF is the air flow rate - I do not know if 7.55 g/s is about right at idle speed.

FRP will be the fuel pressure - 35750 kpa (= 357 bar) so this is probably about right.

[arak81]

Hi Paul.h I highly appreciate your patient of answering the question in details.

 

I have started the car this morning and before starting i have deleted the fault code as you said, So there were no freeze frame data but steering wheel as well as other components of the cockpit stated vibrating. car has stated with 1000rpm and after couple of seconds it idle at 900rpm which it always does. yesterday i have disconnected the battery fully and left it for 5 minutes before reconnecting to get the car remember default ignition. I have hoped that would sort the problem out, but not. what else i can do now? 

[paul.h]

We could still do with knowing what the engine coolant temperature is before the car is started from cold. If it is reading high it will give the wrong fuel/air mixture so will not run smoothly.

 

The other thing that affects the running when warming up is the glow plugs - people say these are not needed until it gets below freezing but others say they are still used to minimise emissions as the engine warms.

[arak81]

I always wanted to have the glow plugs fixed but due to having them in awkward place garage asks for  lots of money...and as car was working fine I didn't bother. but if this is causing this vibration I have to look for have it fixed. I will search for videos for DIY and if you Paul or anyone  knows how to do it self please give me the step by step guide.

 

My MaxiScan is not giving me option for read the coolant temperature.

 

I have checked the Power Steering fluid and on the gauge its at the very bottom of Minimum mark. I am gonna buy the fluid now to top up..eurocarparts told me this is the right one to top up

TRIPLE QX Hydraulic Power steering Fluid (CHF 11S)GREEN - 1 ltr

 

I will also buy brake fluid Pagid Dot4 Brake Fluid 500ml to top up.

[Rookie2]

When topping up the power steering fluid, remember to move the steering fully right and then left a couple of times to distribute the fluid throughout the system and chase air out.

[arak81]

I followed this procedure and also there were bit to much that i poured. so i sucked some out with tissue papers. Do you have any idea of vibration Rookie 2. In the morning its dreadful...but throughout the whole day it eases out.

[Rookie2]

If you have tried all of the obvious, then why not try disconnecting the power steering belt. Just take it off and start the engine again and see if you get any vibrations.

I dont know what else, if anything, your power steering belt drives, but whatever, it will take no hurt for a quick start up minus the belt to see if the problem persists.

 

If the problem persists even with the belt connected then I would be looking at the pulleys on the engine. does the fan belt run true and without wobble over the crank pulley ? Can you see (with the engine running) a nice smooth travel of the belt around the crank pulley or do you see the belt wobbling ?. The crank pulley has a rubber shock absorber bonded into it, these can break down and cause all sorts of problems, from vibration to total collapse and destruction of the cam belt and timming.

 

Some crank pulleys can vibrate after becoming hot and some only do it when they are cold, of course there are also many that have no problem whatsoever.

 

You said the fluid level was at the minimum, why ? The amount of fluid lost by a healthy system is minimal, the only place it can be lost is by joint leakage and of course the smear left on the chrome of the steering rack as it goes in and out.

 

So check your pipework and also the gaitors on the streering rack for signs of leakage, if you have been running on low oil for some time, it could be that your pump has already had it in a cold state and needs to warm up before operating correctly.

[coastline taxis]

when the car is vibrating is the engine jumpine around.   Most start faults with the 1.6 are down to the egr valve. when it does it next unplug the egr multiplug and see what happens.  It will put the mil lamp on but you can clear it  later

[arak81]

Thanks for your input Rookie2 and coastline taxis. are these things diyable? i neither have garage nor have car jack. which one is egr multiplug in the engine?

[Rookie2]

Hi Arak

 

For most jobs on these motors you will probably need a set of basic tools and a decent jack buddy. I'm sure members here can recommend decent quality jacks to buy.

 

cheers

 

steve

Edited February 5, 2017 by Rookie2

[coastline taxis]

left hand side of your engine just above the fan belt. it has 2 x big rubber hoses conecting it. im thinking egr or a faulty crank sensor

[arak81]

Thanks for your advice Rookie2. I have very basic tools but no jack and even i don't feel confident enough to work under the car. if car needed works under the car then i take it to garage.

 

What coastline taxis is saying seems easy for me to do but i wish if i know exactly what I have to do. I have seen those hoses..do i have to unscrew the jubilee clip to open them, or sensor of any kind around them needs unplugging?

 

 

I have taken this photos this morning after driving it for 15 minutes..the coolant temperature in overhead dash board  was 3bar. I also noticed that the car is consuming bit too much fuel.

[paul.h]

From these I think your coolant temp sensor is probably ok, showing 6°C and being in London where it is warmer than elsewhere - here it was below freezing until the sun came up.

[arak81]

left hand side of your engine just above the fan belt. it has 2 x big rubber hoses conecting it. im thinking egr or a faulty crank sensor

 

I have uploaded the engine photo..so which multiplug i need to unplug and test coastline taxis

[Rookie2]

This is the same vehicle which. last week, was producing a stinky smell when you were reversing in Snowdonia.

You stated at that time when you were driving back the steering started to vibrate.

Now it appears the steering vibrates everytime the car starts until it warms up.

 

I still suspect that the DMF is on it's way out and is causing the cold start vibrations. You can take the vehicle to a gearbox specialist and have them test the DMF output.

 

cheers

[arak81]

Yea, it is the same one. When I was reversing in a little uphill muddy narrow uneven road all of a sudden the stinky smell were all over in the car and car was refusing to go backward. the smell was something like RUBBER BURNING and DECEASED ANIMAL. I was even checking underneath the car if any animal (rats, cats etc) were stuck in there few days ago which could be deceased and  spreading odour.

i had to request to access to the property to turn the car round. I did three points turning there without any problem.

 

Note that when i was stuck on reversing steering wheel didn't vibrate at that point of time...car was simply not going backward and i was scared to try again. 

[Rookie2]

But you stated that it was shortly after that event, driving home from Snowdonia, that the vibration started ?

 

I still suspect that your DMF has started to break up and is now out of balance. You can take it to get it tested or, as I said previously, a quick test is to block the cars wheels (all 4 of them) so they cannot move,

Put the handbrake on full

Start the engine and put the car into 3rd gear.

Rev the engine and try to pull away in that 3rd gear with the wheels blocked.

 

The result you are looking for is that the engine will try to pull away but will stall in doing so.

 

The result you do NOT want is that the car does not pull away, the engine does not stall,  and the "Rev Counter and speedo Increase."

 

If the vehicle stalls then we have to look elsewhere for the vibrations. if it does not stall then we can assume you have found the source of your cold start vibrations.

[arak81]

Hi guys,very bad morning..just a while ago (8am)I was tasting the car with third gear as Rookie2 said and it left my car gear not working anymore. Thanks God and also Paul.h that I didn't try it in Snowdonia.

 

Well, what happened is..car didn't stall and rev continued increasing. all of a sudden I have seen a huge smoke coming out of the bonnet when rev increasing and there was rubber burning smell which was very strong..I am in the bus now and can still feel the smell.the car was still cold by the way..I quickly switched off the engine and open the bonnet. Smoke was coming from the back of the engine...waited sometomes and started the car to come to work..but guess what gear doesn't work..I can manage to put first gear and from there I can not move it to any other gear.note that, when car is switched off gear works fine.

 

My gear was working very smoothly and just five months ago I put a second hand DMF which was used for 5k only.

litterily I have just ruined my car now..

I can guess that I have to change DMF again which will probably cost me 500pounds. any idea or suggestion anybody plz..

[paul.h]

Sorry to hear this. It looks as if you will need a new dmf and clutch.

 

Do not bother with a second hand one this time since you have no idea how good it is, even if low miles it may have been abused/used for lots of short trips so many gear changes. Also a new one will have a guarantee. You might also consider having a solid flywheel/clutch kit installed instead of the dmf - the cost will probably be similar but you will not get a dmf failure in the future.

[arak81]

Thats what i ordered Paul.h. Valeo Solid Flywheel Conversion Product Code: 633540040 and gearbox oil.fitting cost would be around £160. and to add insult to injury I had my mobile phone fallen on the concrete road this afternoon which caused its screen scattered. my wife's phone screen was already broken but it decided to stop working today. So it is quite a hell of day for me today.

 

NO ONE EVER SHOULD TRY THIS DMF TESTING METHOD OTHER THAN THE GARAGE I THINK.

[Rookie2]

The test I described to do should take a matter of a few seconds at most. thats how quickly you should be able to tell if the clutch slipped or not. If you have continued the test past the first couple of seconds then it will result in the clutch/DMF burning out.

Certainly within 3 seconds you should be able to stall the vehicle, if you cannot then the only other option is that it is slipping and it should be switched off.

 

Be aware of buying second hand DMF's, yes they may have only done 5 miles from new, or it may have done 500,000 miles from new, once removed from the vehicle there is no way for the layman to tell.

[arak81]

Forgot to add- I didn't change the clutch kit when had the DMF replaced...it was stupid and ignorance of me and even garage people didn't mention about it. the guy who will be doing the job now is an expert of peugeot and citroen (I mentioned about this people in my another post). When he inspected the car this morning by the smell of the burning he said definitely clutch is gone  and DMF might be okay if i have had it replaced few months ago (he also didn't recommend to put a second hand one) and can't be sure until they bring it down. he recommended to go for solid flywheel conversion kit.

 

Paul.h: is there any way we can edit our post? I tried to add this bit in my previous post and couldn't find an option of adding it.

[arak81]

The test I described to do should take a matter of a few seconds at most. thats how quickly you should be able to tell if the clutch slipped or not. If you have continued the test past the first couple of seconds then it will result in the clutch/DMF burning out.

Certainly within 3 seconds you should be able to stall the vehicle, if you cannot then the only other option is that it is slipping and it should be switched off.

 

Be aware of buying second hand DMF's, yes they may have only done 5 miles from new, or it may have done 500,000 miles from new, once removed from the vehicle there is no way for the layman to tell.

 

i didn't realise that i have to do it for 2/3 seconds. I kept the clutch pressed until rev went at it's top. Not a lot of people are as wise as you..therefore need more clear instruction or caution that don't do it more than 3seconds or don't force to much. I have learnt my very expensive lesson today.

[coastline taxis]

Theres no other way to test it.  The garage that told you to use a 2nd hand dmf and not even change the clutch want shooting for it. false economy all the way