Steering Wheel Vibrates Like Electric Saw From Cold Start

[Rookie2]

I'm sorry if you feel that it is some way my fault Arak. Our only intention on here is to try to help people within the confines of the information we are given.

Unfortunately you did not inform us that you had a part clutch/dmf fitted with a second hand unit. I am sure had you told us that, then the other posters would also have immediately suspected the clutch at fault.

Yes, perhaps with hindsight I could have stipulated that only a few seconds was needed to carry out the test but the general assumption is that a modicum of common sense is used also used by all members.

The second that your vehicle failed to stall, the test was ended and no longer necessarry to rev the vehicle any further.

 

Cheers

[paul.h]

Arak, I think your above posts read ok without needing to edit them but if editing is needed it can be done by a moderator.

 

The test apart, your clutch was already worn out before you tested it shown when it slipped/gave the smell in Snowdonia. All the test has done is confirm it needed replacing. If the clutch had been ok the engine would have stalled straight away, never mind in 2 or 3 seconds. You may have got a few more days or possibly weeks out of it without the test but then it might have failed when trying to go up a hill and not at home. So I would not feel too bad about it, it is just unfortunate the car is costing you a lot to keep in good repair, I suspect you might not want another Citroen or diesel after this one. Until recent years, I used to get older, high mileage cars but found I was spending a lot of time and money repairing them. When I had enough money to start buying newer lower mileage cars I found they were overall costing similar amounts but I got my weekends back to do other things since they were only needing servicing.

[arak81]

Hi Rookie2, don't get me wrong. I am not upset with you or blaming anybody here. In fact i am thanking you for sharing this testing method with us. It's a piece of knowledge. It was purely my bad luck that i didnt get my clutch kit replaced during dmf replacing.

 

coastline taxis, I am not gonna be angry with that garage as well who changed the dmf.of course they told me about the risk of second hand dmf. cant remember them saying to me to change the clutch kit though. Even myself hasn't had any idea about clutch kit.

 

paul.h - You are absolutely right. When it gave me bad smell and refused to work on reverse gear it was the sign of something bad happened to the car. Well, i always like to take care of my car. I could have sold this one couple of weeks ago for 2grands..but somehow i like it and didnt sell it.its a beautiful looking hatchback that i have ever seen. Next car i wish to go for is German made if i can afford..

[paul.h]

German cars may not be more reliable than Citroens, it is just they get that message out by their adverts. Mercedes are known for rusting and BMWs can also rust - have a look at a few 10 year old cars. I think some VW diesels (and maybe Skoda/Seat/Audi) may be prone to high pressure fuel pump and oil pump problems. I knew somebody with a diesel VW Polo where the clutch failed and was replaced but then 5000 miles later it failed again since the dealer did not replace the dmf. Servicing costs for them may also be higher - all things to check when you eventually decide to go for one.

[arak81]

I am totally agree with you paul. that's why i didn't want to waste money just for the brand. but some people from the garage and also some of my friends keep saying get a German build car instead of France. they are well build and so and so.

Anyway, I have had my dmf and clutch kit replaced today with valeo solid flywheel conversion. the clutch now  feels very light and no vibration at all in the clutch (previously there was always vibration in the clutch when it was pressed a little bit). now the clutch works without any effort which makes me bit uncomfortable. I guess i need some times to get use to it now. The bad stinky smell is still there. Do you any idea how to get rid off it?

 

About the clutch kit and dmf :- garage guy said they have never seen like my clutch plate which was broken in two pieces and dmf was also bad. so it was really worth changing to solid flywheel now instead of just changing clutch kit.

[arak81]

Just to add my experience, i have just driven the car in the motor way and i have felt like car is bit under power (torque) now. before i never had to press the accelerator pedal  all the way to the end and car used to accelerate within very small amount of press in the accelerator..now i have driven in the motorway and had to press the pedal all the way to the end to keep up the steady of speed several time. I am wondering how would it be like driving in a place like Snowdonia. is there any tweak to increase the torque...or car will be okay in hilly area?

[paul.h]

This does not sound right, possibly the garage that fit the new clutch has not connected everything back. The new clutch should not affect the acceleration. The clutch pedal needing less effort I think is normal when a new one is put in but in time it may require more - at least this is what I have found.

 

The smell will be from bits/dust of the old clutch and should go gradually. Maybe leave it a few days and see if it goes, if not the area around the engine where you saw the smoke might need wiping with a damp cloth to remove the dust. The pollen filter might also have some dust in it.

[Rookie2]

copied...

 

When you're engine is running, it isn't a smooth motion, especially a 4 cylinder diesel. This can be easily seen through the scope pattern of a crank sensor. As a cylinder fires, the waves will get closer together as the crank spins that bit faster and spread out again as it loses it's inertia. Coincedently, this is how an EMS spots a misfire, because the waves stay constant rather than contract and expand.

So we can translate this to the crank pulley and flywheel. These objects speed up and slow down along with the crank, as they're bolted to it. Early diesels used rubber mounted crank pulleys. This stopped excessive belt oscilation (watch an auxilary belt tensioner in slow motion) and acted a bit on the crank. A crank pulley isn't very big or heavy though, so it's force doesn't have much impact on the engine.

A flywheel however, is very heavy. It's also very wide, meaning it carrys and lot of rotation mass and torque. So when this starts oscilating with the crank, it creates a much larger resonation. Of course, you're thinking that flywheels are there to help an engine keep it's rotation and smoothness. In a nice smooth petrol engine, yes, but they don't have to deal with these massive oscilations.

So a dual mass flywheel, which is basically 2 flywheels which are attached by springs, helps by using the spring travel to damped those oscilations to the drivetrain. As the engine side spins, that quick accerlation of the pistion is taken up by the springs, and transfered to the gearbox side. This means the gearbox side spins a lot more smoothly, helping to keep the drivetrain intact and stop unwanted vibrations and resonations.

[arak81]

I didnt understand all of these Rookie2. Just need to know whether my car is okay now or not..it feels very light and picks up speed slowly where as i used to feel the power of the car previously and didnt need to much effort in the gas padal.

[Rookie2]

The general concensus is that a dual mass flywheel could/should give a very very slight increase in acceleration but probably hardly discernable to the average person such as you or I.

Right at this moment, your vehicle should feel no different to how it was before in relation to noticeable performance.

If you are saying you can certainly tell the difference in performance then you should go back to the people who did the work and point that out to them.

[arak81]

I brought the car to the guy who got it fixed..he drove it around and said everything was fine..and also said,if there was any connection problem engine light should have on straight away. He advised me to drive around to get used to it..but I feel car is very week. gas pedal response is slow. btw, the steering wheel vibration is still exist..when I turned it on this norning it was vibrating but bit less than before.

[paul.h]

To replace the clutch the gearbox has to be removed and to get at the bolts at the top, the air filter and ducting will have been removed, including the MAF and maybe some other connections. I would have a good look in this area to see if you can spot anything that has not been connected up again.

[arak81]

I had a quick look at the engine but couldn't see anything wrong. once the weather get better i will dig deep. There must be something wrong that for sure..cause as i am driving the car i can press the gas all the way to the end all of a sudden and car responses very slowly..but if it was before car gets speed up as soon as i press the gas. My concern is gas pedal is slow in response. thats what i can put in a line.

 

And morning steering wheel vibration is still there..steering will vibration makes the key ring, sunglasses, coins kept in the pocket jingle..but as the car warming up vibration goes off. I spoke with guy about glow plugs and he said glow plugs do not cause any kind of problems. they meant to be for the cold country where temperature is well below zero degree. if there were no glow plugs car would work as it should be. so i guess it is something else what is causing this problem.

 

Any suggestion from anybody will be appreciated.

[paul.h]

For the vibration

- coastline suggested in post 9 to unplug the egr valve as a test. According to the Haynes manual it is at the back of the cylinder head at the battery end. To remove the egr valve lots of things in the way need removing such as the air filter, but to just unplug it may not need this.

- Rookie2 in post 8 has also suggested the crankshaft pulley needs to be checked in case the rubber insert is breaking up.

[arak81]

I'll try to have a look on them...but today when i was driving on 70mph on motorway sharp braking was causing steering wheel shake. i have tried few more times to determine and yes definitely steering wheel was shaking too much with a sudden or sharp brake.. when i was in 50mph it was not shaking for sudden braking though. is it related with the steering wheel vibration problem or sudden braking on 70mph causing steering wheel shake is normal?

[Rookie2]

Steering wheel shake at ANY speed is not normal.

[paul.h]

Steering wheel shaking whilst braking is usually due to the brakes, possibly one of the 4 brake discs being badly worn or warped or the brakes needing a clean so the calipers/pads are free to move as the brakes are applied. it could also be a sign of wear in the suspension or maybe different tyres on opposite sides of the car. If you felt the brake pedal vibrate then that would be the abs working.

 

When were the brakes last serviced ?

 

I suspect this is nothing to do with the vibration when not moving as the engine warms up.

[arak81]

I have noticed that there is a banging noise coming from the underneath of the car while pressing the gas during the gear shifting. Something like you stopped on a red signal and now time to move on..thats the time you will hear this noise..throughout the whole time you can hear this banging noise when you will be speeding and releasing the gas. (noise is like some iron metal is hitting something). it might be coming from the FLYWHEEL and CLUTCH box. has anyone got any idea..can this slod flywheel banging anything.

 

I am preparing to go to that guy tomorrow...if he tries to make me understand saying that its normal for solid flywheel..i have to have something to tell him back to make him check the car properly.. I am still unhappy as car is not accelerating the way it used to do before.

[paul.h]

if it did not make the noise before the clutch change then it is most likely something has not been put back or tightened up. Solid flywheel clutches do not make banging noises, I am sure you never heard any on your previous cars. Possibilities could include the plastic cover under the engine might have a fastener missing so it is loose, the air filter ducting might be loose, the engine/gearbox mounting at the back might be in poor condition/not tightened/bolt missing allowing the engine to rock forwards and backwards, the gearbox mounting might not be tightened up or in poor condition, there could be other things from under the engine that have not been tightened up after putting them back.

 

This is the rear mounting, it has a bolt at each and the forked end fastens to a rubber bush on the engine - if a bolt was missing or the rubber bushes in poor condition the engine could rock a bit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BIRTH-REAR-ANTI-ROLL-BAR-ENGINE-MOUNT-MOUNTING-OE-QUALITY-REPLACE-51878-/112057234888

[arak81]

Well well well....finally i got the acceleration problem and banging sound from underneath of the car sorted.

 

Firstly banging or knocking sound: Nearside Track Rod End was worn out. mechanic made it wobble in front of me to show that there was nothing but this was faulty. I still couldn't believe as sound appeared to be coming from boot side and sometimes front side...anyway, we got it changed with Lemforder Track Rod End Product Code: 606545025, costed me £40 including labour. Unbelievable no noise afterwards.

 

Secondly: Guy wasn't convinced that the car was not accelerating properly. I scanned car with my MaxiScan code reader today before taking it to him and found the Code P0299 which says Turbocharger/Supercharger underboost. So i showed it to him..Once he changed the Track Rod End he had a look on solenoid valve and found that Boost vacuum pipe (or whatever it calls) which connected with solenoid valve was split. So he cut it off and  rejoined. Voilà problem sorted.. Car now runs with its full power. he said when i spoiled the clutch kit and dmf i must have done this too.

So their job of changing DMF to Solid Flywheel conversion stands flawless which i doubted before.

 

When I test driven the car after all of these i was over the moon. Now need to see in the morning if steering wheel's vibration has been reduced or not. Oh by the way, I again have to do my steering wheel tracking (£35) as track rod end changing made my steering wheel totally out of track.

 

Total cost: I had to count  £275 (SFW)+£150 (labour)+£45 (Track road end and solenoid valve repair) + £35 (wheel tracking) = £505 + lots of stress.

[paul.h]

I hope this is the end of your problems for now but well done for your persistance in getting it sorted. If the vacuum pipe was split and not done whilst replacing the clutch, then if ever there are running problems it is worth looking for splits elsewhere in case the pipe is deteriorating. 

 

Depending on how the nearside drive shaft was removed when doing the clutch, the track rod end might have been disconnected then so the hub could have been moved, I wonder if they damaged it ?

[arak81]

I have been enjoying driving my car so far. its very powerful and smooth now..only few problems still exist which makes me wonder what could those fault be cased by?

 

1. Vibration in the morning (cold start makes staring wheel vibrate too much)

2. Sharp Braking at 70mph causes steering wheel shakes

 

I went to halfords autocentre for free 15pont check and also i had brake for life warranty. they gave me following report

 

BRAKES 

 

FRONT BRAKE PAD FRICTION MATERIAL WORN TO 9MM

REAR BRAKE PAD FRICTION MATERIAL WORN TO 7MM

 

S+S

TRACK ROD END

OFFSIDE INNER TRACK ROD END WORN

BEARING REAR SLIGHT PLAY IN NEARSIDE REAR WHEEL BEARING

 

(When i did my 15point check back in Oct 2015 my friction material of brake pad was 7mm left for both front and rear tyres. I drove 15k miles over the last one and half years time and mystery remains undiscovered how the friction material of brake pads become 9mm and 7mm now for front and rear respectively. even the brake disks appeared to  them near new. Guys have taken the measurement twice as they were confused too. I swear upon god..i didn't do any brake works. So it seems they grow them self)

 

Anyway, Technician said as i have had my DMF changed that might be cause of steering wheel shaking when brake pressed at high speed. He said it was not advisable not change DMF to SMF in this car as DMF is in their for reasons.  He also showed me a website where it says SMF meant to give rough drive experience with vibration and car will have lots of torque..thats why sports cars, trucks use SMF. DMF should be smoother drive experience. I am confused.. and thinking whether i should go for TRACK ROD END replace for the offside now to see if it stops the shaking for the steering wheel at high speed brake.. If it could be stopped i would love the car..engine mounting and other advice people gave me here have been checked..and they seem ok.

 

 

 

 

anyway, 

[paul.h]

For the braking, the first thing would be to clean the brakes by removing the pads and cleaning off all the dirt that builds up so the pads/calipers/pistons are free to move easily. Whilst the pads are off also check the disc runout - how much sideways movement there is as the wheel is turned, to see if it is still with the limits. The front pads have friction material 13 mm thick when new and the rear ones 11 mm and need replacing if down to 3 mm but I clean our brakes every 1 or 2 years depending on how many miles have been done. Depending on how you drive/brake, I have found front pads can last about 50k miles so wearing about 1 mm each 5k miles and rear ones can last longer. So this might suggest your front pads were new about 20k miles ago and maybe they have not been cleaned since then.

 

Did Halfords measure the brake disc thickness to see if they were worn to the minimum ?

 

Did Halfords check for wear in the front lower suspension arm bushes ?

 

The track rod - is it an inner one or the one at the wheel end of the steering rack that is worn ?

 

Does the rear bearing give a whining noise as you drive along which gets louder as you go faster ? This is usually when people have them replaced as they become aware of a problem. Did Halfords say it needed replacing ?

 

There is still the egr valve check for the vibration as the engine warms up.

[Rookie2]

Arak

Your first post on this subject......................

 

"

In the morning when I start the car steering wheel vibrates like I am holding an electric saw.  In fact its not only steering wheel, whole cockpit vibrates. this vibration goes off when i press on gas and engine becomes warm. when the car is on run, no vibration at all. so in a word car only vibrates from morning cold start which it even didn't do last week. It can not be the engine mounts as the vibration occurs only morning cold start. is there any idea? "

 

I honestly believe you need to recheck the engine mounts on the car. I would guess that at least one of them has a perished rubber or split rubber or even a bolt missing. The engine when warming up is going through a fuelling stage which promotes the rapid warm up of the engine, extra fuel/air and engine advancement. This will cause extra vibration of the engine which, if it happens when an engine mount is not functioning correctly will cause severe vibrations, as would a perished rubber on a Crank Shaft Pulley.

 

The cold rubber insert of the crankshaft pulley will, when the engine is stopped, deform into whatever position the belts pull it. So when you start the car, the pulley is not running true until the rubber insert has warmed up and become pliable allowing the pulley to run true. Which is probably why the vibrations dissappear when the engine is warm.

Edited February 17, 2017 by Rookie2

[arak81]

Halfords people drove the car at 70mph to identify the problems..they also admitted that steering wheel shakes once brake is pressed starting from 60mph.at 50mph steering wheel doesn't shake, no matter how sharp you press the brake.

 

They said INNER ROD END WORN OUT..I am also confused which one need replacing..I tried to wobble the tyre while in jack to see, but it seemeed OUTER ROD END was ok..so must be inner one which is connected with steering wheel.

They checked and measured everything regarding brake pad, disk. When the guy said friction materials left in the pad was 9mm aand 7mm from their best technician he even didnt believe himself. So he took the measurement again and definitely it was 9mm and 7mm..brake disk appeared to be new as well 25mm. I haven't had any work done for the brakes..but well they said to start from the track rod end replacement to see if it solves the problem..otherwise problem will be underlying the SMF.

 

Tomorrow I will have INNER TRACK ROD END replaced..I will ask the guy to check the engine mounts and pulley...halford said there was vibration coming from gearbox..may be people did the job couldn't do it properly..still I can feel some noise when pressing gas at the beginning of driving.