Immobilizer Fault, Economy Mode, Cant Start

[stereotypical]

hi,

 

new problems as usual :)

 

Sent my C8 to my mechanic to replace the throttle body and do some rewiring as you know from my other post that i've been having issues with it for a while now with the dodgy wires and dodgy throttle body. 

 

Anyhow, mechanic replaced the throttle body with a brand new one, got new wires connected to it, and serviced the engine oil, and everything worked fine. 

 

Next day, immobilizer fault pops up, he cant start it anymore obviously it cuts out the fuel. He told me he did some reset stuff on his own, using a combination of the computer and the remote key and etc, which i dont know how, and it could start again, and everything worked fine again, he test drove it around and etc and then parked it back again.

 

Two days later, same thing happened immobilizer fault, then its economy mode pops up.  he tried his previous method but it didn't work anymore and now its just not starting at all. 

 

I followed one instruction about the door and keyhole thing to disconnect the battery and etc but that didn't reset the bsi. 

 

Checked the earth connections, that didn't work either. 

 

Any ideas what happened? Im afraid he might have messed something up while replacing the throttle body or trying to unlock the immobilizer when it popped up but still doesnt make sense that it worked fine for the first day but not the second. 

 

Planning to take my laptop over there when im free as i have lexia in it, as he has no clue what to do now. He's not a citroen specialist btw, but he's decent mechanic and trust worthy one which is why i go to him. 

 

thx

 

[stereotypical]

ok went to the mechanic today, brought lexia with me, scanned it. 

 

This is what i got, permanent faults to the ecu and remote alarm but can't seem to go into deeper, it just shows those below. Any ideas? Im not so familiar with lexia and its functionalities but this is what i've got so far, if anyone can let me know what should i do next? 

 

Tried resetting from Pauls replies in another post, 

 

. Ensure no diagnostics tool is connected.
2. Put the driver's window down and ensure all equipment is switched off.
3. Ensure all doors are closed, remove key from the ignition and wait for 3 minutes.
4. Disconnect the vehicle battery and wait 15 seconds.
5. Reconnect the vehicle battery and wait a further 10 seconds (do not open doors).
6. Switch on the side lights through the driver's window (you will hear a "bong").
7. Switch on the ignition and check system's functionality.
8. Hold lock button on key down for 10 seconds.
9. Remove key, open & close door and test central locking system.
10. Start the engine and complete the system's check.
NOTE: Upon re-connection (soft re-boot), if any vehicle function controlled by the BSi (i.e . interior light) is switched on, the internal operation of the BSi has the potential to spike or corrupt its configuration and software program......

 

 

That didn't work either, cuz its on economy mode, so i can't wind the window down, so i don't think it worked, didn't get the bong sound. 

 

Mechanic's gonna replace the batteries tomorrow, and check the coil packs. Any ideas on what i should do with the lexia? Is there a way to reset everything with lexia? Switched off the ecu and on again from the box but didn't work either. 

 

 

[stereotypical]

i do see this small image in the dash that shows when the car is completely switched off, never seen that before when it was working. 

Edited November 19, 2017 by stereotypical

[paul.h]

Makes you wonder if the wiring changes have done something or an electrical plug is loose. The transponder aerial is the detector that sits around the ignition key lock, they do not cost much if it is faulty and that would give an immobiliser fault - maybe this was the original problem that started it all off.

 

When doing a bsi reset, if the windows can not be opened then just open the driver's door and close its lock around a screwdriver so that the car thinks the door is closed. I have never done a bsi reset so do not know how effective they are and there may be other versions of it on the internet.

[Simple]

I hope the original reason wasn't that the fuel pump is contemplating suicide!! Hence the change of the throttle body...

 

The car could lose the immobiliser code if the battery is very low or disconnected for a long period, so ensure your battery is in good form and fully charged. Try pressing the lock or unlock button on the key fob for 15 seconds when you turn the ignition on.

 

Anyway, a likely reason is that some dampness/water has gone into the engine fuse box (under the bonnet - driver side), due to a known design fault. Try spraying the fuse box's PCB with water propellant (e.g. wd40 or 3 in 1) it may sort it.

[paul.h]

Being a petrol car if the fuel pump is only one in the fuel tank then that may not be too bad, unless it is a hpi engine which also has a high pressure fuel pump.

[stereotypical]

I hope the original reason wasn't that the fuel pump is contemplating suicide!! Hence the change of the throttle body...

 

The car could lose the immobiliser code if the battery is very low or disconnected for a long period, so ensure your battery is in good form and fully charged. Try pressing the lock or unlock button on the key fob for 15 seconds when you turn the ignition on.

 

Anyway, a likely reason is that some dampness/water has gone into the engine fuse box (under the bonnet - driver side), due to a known design fault. Try spraying the fuse box's PCB with water propellant (e.g. wd40 or 3 in 1) it may sort it.

changed the throttle body cuz it was giving really bad idles, the wiring was dodgy as well, and the throttle body waas already slightly damaged at the connector area from the previous owner, and it wasn't adjusting well when the aircon compressor kicks in, and it usually cuts off when i slow down at traffic jams, i have to play around with my accelerator pedal so it won't die out everytime which is really annoying. 

 

press the lock button on the remote you mean ? and hold it for 15 seconds before cranking? or hold it at the ignition 1st level for 15 seconds and then crank?

 

yeah its been raining where the car's been parked checked the fuse box looks ok, but will let my mechanic know today if recharging the battery doesn't work.

 

thx

g

[stereotypical]

Being a petrol car if the fuel pump is only one in the fuel tank then that may not be too bad, unless it is a hpi engine which also has a high pressure fuel pump.

 i don't think its the fuel pump though, it was working fine after the throttle body change and then it stopped when the immobilizer kicks in, i see from lexia that its not communicating with the engine ecu and remote alarm ecu. 

[stereotypical]

im still not sure if it is the battery though as my mechanic mentioned when he replaced the throttle body it was working fine, and then next day immobilizer fault popped up, then he tried some reset function where he open and closed the door lock 3 times, then went into ignition twice, and then it started, he was just messing about really and it was fine, then he parked it for two days, and tried again immobilizer fault popped up and economy mode pops up. 

 

Now its just economy mode popping up. But would a dodgy battery cause this? why would it run fine the first day and then not the second and then run again only to fail two days later?

[Simple]

From the description of your issue, it sounds as if it is a power (deprivation) issue. Is it:

 

1- Loose or corroded connection?

2- Power leakage in the Fuse Box PCB?

3- Battery not keeping the charge?

4- Spike that is causing the error?

5- .....

 

All the above would need to be investigated in a sequence starting with the easiest and cheapest (minimum part changing) until issue is found. So, before changing expensive parts, I would spray the Fuse Box PCB and unplug connectors, spray them (and replug them) with some Cleaner or WD-40 as well as other related connectors and see if it works.

[stereotypical]

From the description of your issue, it sounds as if it is a power (deprivation) issue. Is it:

 

1- Loose or corroded connection?

2- Power leakage in the Fuse Box PCB?

3- Battery not keeping the charge?

4- Spike that is causing the error?

5- .....

 

All the above would need to be investigated in a sequence starting with the easiest and cheapest (minimum part changing) until issue is found. So, before changing expensive parts, I would spray the Fuse Box PCB and unplug connectors, spray them (and replug them) with some Cleaner or WD-40 as well as other related connectors and see if it works.

ok will do heading down there again tomorrow will let my mechanic know to do all those first before mis diagnosing my car. 

 

thanks a bunch!

[paul.h]

I would not worry too much about the economy mode message since that is normal and should go once the engine runs again.

 

Have a look at this topic (if not already seen) since it may just need some earth points cleaning http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/21729-c8-immobiliser-fault/

[stereotypical]

I would not worry too much about the economy mode message since that is normal and should go once the engine runs again.

 

Have a look at this topic (if not already seen) since it may just need some earth points cleaning http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/21729-c8-immobiliser-fault/

yeap thanks i've read that post already, told my mechanic to do so, but somehow he doesnt believe in earth wires causing the no start issue, but insisted anyways. Went there today and he's already tried fully recharging the battery but still doesnt work. 

 

He's checking all fuses now and stripping everything under the dashboard, im getting more and more worried that opening everything up is going to cause more issues later on.  :(

 

i see the transponder permanent fault as well, someone commented on that on my post in a fb chat, and said it could be the transponder, but i see the error in communication with the ECU and also remote ECU, so im thinking something to do with the bsi connection there?

 

but i highly doubt something has failed as everything was working fine until he replaced the throttle body and the wiring to it. 

[stereotypical]

ok i have a feeling its the bsi as the errors show:

 

1. Communication fault to engine ECU

2. Communication fault to engine  ECU

3. ABS fault

3. Permanent fault to RH and LH indicators

4. Permanent fault to Transponder Aerial

5. Permanent fault door mirror flip back output open circuit

 

which relay or fuse powers the bsi? or which one could have been faulty that caused all those errors at once?

 

found this post in another forum as well that sounds similar. 

https://www.rac.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?21426-Citroen-C5-Electrical-Immobiliser-ECU-BSI-issue

 

but no solutions. sigh..........

[Simple]

You did not say if he cleaned the Fuse Box PCB?

 

I would not trust the diagnosis results if the root cause is a power (deprivation / leakage / bad connection) issue. You can prove that by deleting the errors and rescanning under different conditions (heat / cold / dampness / dryness), you will get different readings!!

 

As a matter of interest, which DiagBox version are you using?

[stereotypical]

You did not say if he cleaned the Fuse Box PCB?

 

I would not trust the diagnosis results if the root cause is a power (deprivation / leakage / bad connection) issue. You can prove that by deleting the errors and rescanning under different conditions (heat / cold / dampness / dryness), you will get different readings!!

 

As a matter of interest, which DiagBox version are you using?

 

Yeah he was just taking the pcb box out when i went there, how do i delete the errors though, it says permanent fault so it didn't let me erase it, and i can't go into that specific error it was just showing it from the screenshots but not allowing me to click inside it. 

 

Im using V7.65

 

 

can a transponder fault cause all the rest to not work? as i found a spare parts dealer that sells it and its really cheap so figured maybe i could give it a try and replace the transponder aerial and see if that works?

[Simple]

Obviously you can try replacing parts (which might work if the part has internal leakage causing other failures).

 

You can delete errors after reading them, it is in the menu.

 

DiagBox 7.65 is the last one posted by "scarymistake", it has an issue introduced in 7.61.

 

maitresox released from 7.58 up to 7.76 (7.77 is the last in DiagBox 7 series), he then released 7.xx-7.57 and adapted the first few DiagBox v8.xx updates to V7.xx (7.78 to 7.82). 

 

According to users, the best release by Scary is 7.60 and by maitresox is 7.62 (because you can perform Telecoding on those), but they don't have the fixes more recent releases incorporate.

 

I posted update 7.83 (which is actually 8.19), then I devised a way to install V8.01 and posted all Lexia and PP2000 updates up to 8.55 (posted last week). According to some users, they were able to perform some functions with 8.47 that they could not previously (I cannot verify). However, 8.45 comes with significantly larger firmware!!

 

I have a C8 2.0 HDI, I am not a mechanic, and I use my Lexia few times a year and all DiagBox releases (5.xx, 6.xx, 7.xx and 8.xx) work fine with my car..

 

This site has more info on what was fixed in which release:

 

http://service.citroen.com/dtt/IFD/AC/documents/en_GB/

 

This attachment has DiagBox 7+Updates+Firmware+Drivers+Tools (Magnet) (Passwords are in the TXT files.

 

This is update 7.83, I am not sure if I put a password, it has been a couple of years, but if needed it is: "Simple".

 

https://mega.nz/#!JxtQmZAZ!cyjAx-_35vXp6_m1Re1v4t9kV9yDHyXCXUEjQn6jAKg

DiagBox 7+Updates+Firmware+Drivers+Tools (Magnet).txt

Edited November 21, 2017 by Simple

[stereotypical]

Obviously you can try replacing parts (which might work if the part has internal leakage causing other failures).

 

You can delete errors after reading them, it is in the menu.

 

DiagBox 7.65 is the last one posted by "scarymistake", it has an issue introduced in 7.61.

 

maitresox released from 7.58 up to 7.76 (7.77 is the last in DiagBox 7 series), he then released 7.xx-7.57 and adapted the first few DiagBox v8.xx updates to V7.xx (7.78 to 7.82). 

 

According to users, the best release by Scary is 7.60 and by maitresox is 7.62 (because you can perform Telecoding on those), but they don't have the fixes more recent releases incorporate.

 

I posted update 7.83 (which is actually 8.19), then I devised a way to install V8.01 and posted all Lexia and PP2000 updates up to 8.55 (posted last week). According to some users, they were able to perform some functions with 8.47 that they could not previously (I cannot verify). However, 8.45 comes with significantly larger firmware!!

 

I have a C8 2.0 HDI, I am not a mechanic, and I use my Lexia few times a year and all DiagBox releases (5.xx, 6.xx, 7.xx and 8.xx) work fine with my car..

 

This site has more info on what was fixed in which release:

 

http://service.citroen.com/dtt/IFD/AC/documents/en_GB/

 

This attachment has DiagBox 7+Updates+Firmware+Drivers+Tools (Magnet) (Passwords are in the TXT files.

 

This is update 7.83, I am not sure if I put a password, it has been a couple of years, but if needed it is: "Simple".

 

https://mega.nz/#!JxtQmZAZ!cyjAx-_35vXp6_m1Re1v4t9kV9yDHyXCXUEjQn6jAKg

wow thanks ok will update mine and give it a shot. 

 

Just got back from the mechanic again, he's checked all fuse boxes even took out the pcb and cleaned everything still no start. 

 

Batteries charged still no start, he's still not checked the earth wires properly though told him to do it.

 

He's tested everything and said that the BSI is not communicating with the engine ecu and he think its the bsi thats faulty. 

 

I'd rather not try to get a new bsi as its expensive and requires it to be cloned and its just based on his diagnosing skills would rather have a definite answer that can pinpoint that its definitely the bsi, he used his generic reader and it can connect to the BSI but the BSI is not communicating with the engine ECU. 

 

So any ideas...... ?  sigh.......

[Simple]

Ignore the ECU and BSI communication error message if your Lexia can successfully communicate with the BSI and the ECU individually.

 

Until the mechanic performs all checks and tests, any suggestion is a hit and miss.

 

Am I correct in assuming that the immobilizer error appeared after he changed the throttle body? Is your ECU's firmware original or edited to change the power map or disable things like the EGR and/or DPF?

Edited November 22, 2017 by Simple

[stereotypical]

Ignore the ECU and BSI communication error message if your Lexia can successfully communicate with the BSI and the ECU individually.

 

Until the mechanic performs all checks and tests, any suggestion is a hit and miss.

 

Am I correct in assuming that the immobilizer error appeared after he changed the throttle body? Is your ECU's firmware original or edited to change the power map or disable things like the EGR and/or DPF?

 

Yeap the immo fault popped up when he changed the throttle body and redid the wiring through the torelte body as well.

 

Im not sure about the ecu firmware though, ive never touched it since i had it and i dont know if the previous owner did but frm the loks of it i dont think so.

[paul.h]

I guess you need to be careful you do not end up paying the mechanic more than the car can be replaced for. Has he given you any idea of extra costs to fix the car or is it an open ended cheque until fixed ? There was a recent topic on a C3 which needed a new bsi and it was well over £1000 installed at a Citroen dealer but this also included new injector seals.

[Simple]

Agree with Paul.

 

I haven't seen the part for the petrol engines, but when you say re-wiring, do you mean re-plugging the connector or actually re-wiring, if such, why is that? shouldn't it be an exact fit?

 

What happens if he disconnects the connector or inserts it into the original part (while grounded)?, would you still get the error?

[stereotypical]

I guess you need to be careful you do not end up paying the mechanic more than the car can be replaced for. Has he given you any idea of extra costs to fix the car or is it an open ended cheque until fixed ? There was a recent topic on a C3 which needed a new bsi and it was well over £1000 installed at a Citroen dealer but this also included new injector seals.

yeap i dont think he's going to charge me so much as the car was in his hands when it happened so im merely helping him out in trying to solve this problem, but it happened when he was testing it so i dont think he has the nerve to charge me an arm and a leg if he can't seem to figure it out. So far he's been reasonable anyways and have been honest with all my previous repairs. 

 

 

Agree with Paul.

 

I haven't seen the part for the petrol engines, but when you say re-wiring, do you mean re-plugging the connector or actually re-wiring, if such, why is that? shouldn't it be an exact fit?

 

What happens if he disconnects the connector or inserts it into the original part (while grounded)?, would you still get the error?

so the old throttle body was partially damaged at the socket area, what the previous owner did was instead of getting a new throttle body and connector, he just welded the wires into the damaged throttle body, which meant he removed the connector casing. See image attached. 

 

But what i realised is that whole piece of wiring was broken in the insides, so ive been plagued with anti pollution faults and random obd2 fault codes to my tps sensor for the past year. Finally figure it out that the wires were broken inside.

 

So this time i got a proper connector that fits the throttle body and also a brand new throttle body as well. 

 

So i sent it to the mechanic, and he cut off the wires where it was breaking and joined it with the new connector that i bought, and then he replaced the throttle body and put the connector in and voila, all connected properly without any welding and etc. 

 

Then next day the immo fault popped up and it went dead. Then started again randomly and then went dead again after two days and never to have awoken again. 

 

I think it would be a big hassle again to reuse the old throttle body as everything is broken and it doesnt even have pins, but its worth a try if he exhausts all other options. 

[paul.h]

It is hard to imagine how just cutting and joining a few wires in itself could cause this. Possibly it is a coincidence it happened or maybe something was done that caused a voltage spike to the car such as the wrong battery disconnection/reconnection or doing a jump start or charging the battery with it still connected. Maybe pulling on the wiring loom has damaged other wires within it or an earth wire. Maybe the work was done with the battery connected or the connections are not right but you can check this from the wire colours in your photo. These are all speculation though and probably of no help.

 

Have the earth points been checked and the immobiliser aerial replaced yet ?

 

If the mechanic can not sort it can the car be taken to a Citroen dealer ?

[stereotypical]

It is hard to imagine how just cutting and joining a few wires in itself could cause this. Possibly it is a coincidence it happened or maybe something was done that caused a voltage spike to the car such as the wrong battery disconnection/reconnection or doing a jump start or charging the battery with it still connected. Maybe pulling on the wiring loom has damaged other wires within it or an earth wire. Maybe the work was done with the battery connected or the connections are not right but you can check this from the wire colours in your photo. These are all speculation though and probably of no help.

 

Have the earth points been checked and the immobiliser aerial replaced yet ?

 

If the mechanic can not sort it can the car be taken to a Citroen dealer ?

 

i agree with you here, just cutting the wires shouldn't be causing this, and the fact that it was running fine when he replaced the wires, says that it probably wasn't the wires itself, but you just never know with these cars, one day its fine and another it isn't. 

 

So far from what i've observed is that he knows to not jumpstart the car, as he's familiar with alfa romeo's and fiats and those don't like to be jumpstarted as well which he's explained to me. I've personally witnessed him remove the battery and sent it for a recharge. But he did say that the check engine light wasn't showing up when he recharged the battery and put it back, and he tried testing it with an old battery that had dodgy voltage spikes and the check engine light turned on when he turned the ignition which was really weird. 

 

I've not asked him yet about the earth points and aerial yet, haven't gone there today it's been raining all day so i reckon it's gonna cause more issues with the car parked outside. 

 

Yes i can bring it to a citroen dealer but its miles away and i have to get a tow truck so im waiting on him to tell me he can't fix it and then look for other options, he still thinks its the bsi which im reluctant to change as its a big job and cost a lot, owning this c8 for the past 1.5 yrs has thought me that it has a lot of dodgy wiring and that i've seen how just one wire can cause all sorts of problems to the whole system so i doubt that the bsi is faulty at the moment.

 

Do you know how to check live data in lexia upon starting the car to see which ones not working as it should? Im not familiar with using it, all i do is do a global test and thats it, besides that im more or less clueless on how to use it.