Do Citroen Know Anything On These Cars

[Guest c5 headache]

hi everyone,

thought i would list a post because my c5 is on the brink of entering the scrapyard. I purchased a c5 hpi as i have had many a xantia and never a problem i thought i would try one. The problem is ever since i have had it, its been in limp mode. It came to me with acitroen printout saying it was a faulty fuel pump which i have later found to be false. I took the car to a friend of mine who tried to do a diagnostics on it prior to purchasing a pricy fuel pump. At first he could not connect to the vehicle so i purchased my own code reader and that read it straight away. It gave me 2 faults which were the egr valve and p1113. Off i went got a second hand egr valve and a air temp probe but the fault of p1113 is still there. I have constantly spoke with citroen who keep telling me different parts to try. I have replaced these parts at a costly expense but still the same code. I was then advised to check my o2 sensor by techbod which when i tested them i did have a faulty 1 so i replaced that but still after a couple of days the fault reappeared. So again speaking with citreon they advised to try a different part, which guess what didnt work. Now they are saying the ecu must be gone so for me to part with £800 which again probably wont sort it. However there is hope, i have found somebody in sheffield who is very helpfull and he told me straight away that the fault code relates back to a problem with the throttle body which techbod had also mentioned, this guy has worked on quite a few c5's and seems to know his stuff. so as a last ditch attempt i have located 1 and is going on the car later today. The reason for this listing is if anybody has any further suggestions i would like to hear them as these c5's are really nice cars but the problems are too many, well the lack of knowledge by citroen lets them down really. The thing that is winding me up with citroen is all they seem to do is say try this part, then when that does not work they say well it must be this part and so on and so on, before you know it you have spent £600 and it works for a couple of months then goes again.

[techbod]

EGR is a pain in the butttt for this problem and Citroen do know what the fault code means ( they just don't want you to know ) they use P0 codes to confuse people and don't use P1 codes to throw you off the scent, the main thing is to look at all the items that are connected to the emissions like EGR valve/ o2 sensors/ EVAP system/ canister purge valve/ exhaust - air leaks all of which could cause this problem so its hard to pin it down unless the take the car for a run with the diagnostic tool connected so they can log the fault ( called data logging ) and they know how to do that as well but would prefer to keep throwing new parts at it and that's when it gets expensive, I runn extensive tests on the cars ive done to pinpoint the problem with the lowest cost and its a pity Citroen don't do the same in fact all dealers do the same regardless of make of car

[techbod]

here are all the codes ;)

 

http://www.pikit.co.uk/peugeotmt/psa%20eobd%20p%20codes.html

[Guest c5 headache]

thanks for that techbod.

 

do you think a new throttle body will cure the problem or am i just throwing even more money away, i suppose you are not local to me so as i could just pay you to diagnose it correctly for me. The link you gave will certainly help other people. Also has anybody else and any horrendous encounters with ceitroen and their lack of knowledge. if so i think many people could do wit hearing about it as then they may be able to get answers to their problems also.

[techbod]

you might just be throwing more money away without being absolutely sure, the HPI engine is interesting so a good link there to explain it

http://sysdoc.doors.ch/PEUGEOT/hpi_2000_05...51017850765.pdf

 

another site that seems to be on topic with the HPI engine so worth a look on there for people having the same issues as you,

 

http://www.ilexa.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=18962.0

 

http://www.ilexa.co.uk/forum/index.php/top...1.html#msg46221

 

while looking at those codes I noticed this ( EDC16C3 ) and its do do with chip tuning/ flashing for the ECU, probably nothing important as I would say the problem is in the wiring rather than the sensor but interesting on the tuning thing

[Guest c5 headache]

thanks techbod,

 

i had already set off to get the trhottle body before reading what you had put, i have checked all wiring and is fine, it is not the throttle body, lambda sensor, air temp sensor, pre cat lambda sensor, 2 other heated o2 sensors, egr valve. upto press this has cost me a fortune and still no joy. I am just about out of luck and patience with this car now and if i cannot locate the problem before monday i will weigh it in as i have had more than enough of these dreaded c5's now. i may just go back to my xantias as they never let me down and if they do they are a doddle to work on. If anyone can help with any other suggestions, then they will save this car from been crushed on monday. cheers

[Guest c5 headache]

hi everyone,

 

to anyone who knows how to read this freeze frame dat because it is well over my head,

 

i ran 5 different sets of tests at different rpms so as to get varied amounts of data

 

 

TEST 1 TEST 2 TEST 3 TEST 4 TEST 5

DTCFRZF P1113 P1113 P1113 P1113 P1113

FUEL SYS 1 0L 0L 0L 0L 0L

FUEL SYS 2 N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A

LOAD_PCT(%) 16.5 14.5 15.7 15.3 54.9

ETC 44 73 72 72 68

SHRTFT1(%) 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

LONGFT1(%) 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

MAP(KPA) 25 25 27 25 71

RPM(/MIN) 2238 2445 2924 3561 4058

VSS(KM/H) 0 0 0 0 0

FRP(KPA) 430.0 430.0 400 410 410

 

this freeze frame data confuses me the only thing i understand is the fault code at the top and the rpm other than that its like looking in the sea for a stickleback to me. if you think you may be able to help please post as the main reason for listing everything is not only to try and find a cure but also to help any other poor soul who happens to own a hpi and is getting the same faults.

[techbod]

pretty basic info there most of it in the 1st link others are VSS = vehicle speed sensor - ECT = coolant temps - MAP = air volume in the inlet manifold the rest are vacuum and fuel related but it seems you diagnostic tool doesn't support them,

 

http://www.thedieselstop.com/faq/9497faq/t...iles/041704.pdf

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=na...5&q=SHRTFT1

 

this might help understand freeze frame data

[Guest c5 headache]

hi,

 

i have actually found a wire that goes to the purge valve??? that is actually dead, should this have any power to it?

[Guest c5 headache]

just to update,

 

i think it is the puge valve, if i am right it is located to the rear of the ecu. if i am wrong please let me know, also how do i test this is not stuck?

[Randombloke]

I'd suggest the problem is not the C5 as a car, but the HPi engine.

 

I wonder why PSA developed an HPi engine. They sold HDi engines to Honda for a year or two and simply should have looked at the CVCC engine and thought about further development of that, maybe some patent agreements.

 

Neither HPi nor GDi have set the World alight.

 

Forget the HPi engine as a power plant. C'est une catastrophe.

[Guest c5 headache]

as much as i agree with you, the fact still remains there are poor souls out there like myself that have lumbered themselves with a problem with the hpi engine. i will be honest i did go in blindfolded as i was unaware of all the issues that come with it.

 

if only i had not bought it!!!

[bigdavie]

so am i right in saying that the hpi engine is a derivative of the trusty hdi engine ??

 

ie diesel ?

[Randombloke]

so am i right in saying that the hpi engine is a derivative of the trusty hdi engine ??

 

ie diesel ?

 

No. The HPi engine is a stratified charge engine, as I understand it. That's petrol, but with a difference. This allows a petrol engine, which should normally have to run at a stoichiometric mixture (15:1), to run much leaner, e.g up to 40:1. This means that the amount of power required from the engine can be controlled diesel style, just less fuel, rather than throttling the engine which is a thermodynamically disastrous idea, a bit like making an athlete breath though a drinking straw to stop him running too fast.

 

IMO, the best stratified charge (and most pioneering) of such engines was the Honda CVCC engine as fitted to the very first Accords, mostly for the US market, about 1975/6. It was the first car to comply with the 1970 US Clean Air Act.

 

Have look here about CVCC.

 

PSA, in this respect, are merely re-inventors of the wheel. Politics and vested interested probably killed off CVCC.

 

But as kid growing up in Nigeria, I was very impressed by the Accord. Compared to the PSA offerings of the time it was light years ahead. Air con, five speeds, front wheel drive, etc.

 

PSA could spend a lot more time on research to drive double overhead cams that don't self destruct after the first owner has moved on. Forget HPi.

 

PSA should not replace Citroën ideas like DIRAVI and brakes driven off the hydraulic circuit with sh*te spongy brakes more in place in a 1970s 504, like it has on the C5.

 

PSA should simply buy a Honda bike or car engine and take it apart. I think XU was a good effort for its time but cam belts are so 1980s. Cheap, yes, quiet, yes, great at taking the car off the road after the 1st owner has sold it yes, good for spares sales of belts and tensioners, yes, good for the consumer, NO! A decent Hy-Vo chain driving the cams will last the life of the car.

 

Sorry, rant over.

[Guest c5 headache]

just an update on my situation

 

i have all wiring tested today and all is ok. The mechanic who checked all the wiring has gone away baffled, as am i! He has suggested that his friend does have dealer standard diagnostic equipment and has succeded where citroen have failed in the past. So as a last ditch attempt he is arranging for my car to go down one day this week for his friend to take a look on the cheap for me. How ever if he fails then there are 2 choices i have,

 

choice 1:- scrap the car and call it a day with c5's and go back to a xantia or 406

 

choice 2:- sell the car for what i would get scrap value, and let somebody who is brave/stupid enough to try and get the car rectified.

 

The main point i am trying to get accross, is if you are considfering purchasing a c5 of any kind, only purchase through a dealer and make sure you get warranty as then if it fails you dont have to foot the bill. Trust me if you buy private like i did i would be 99% sure that you will get problems of some kind and citroen really dont know enough about these cars yet to get it rectified properly. I may look at the c5 again in 5 yrs time when citroen have learnt more about a car they say is supposed to be far more economical and emmision friendly. The only way they worked this out is the simple fact that it fails you that much that it is envirometally friendy due to the fact is it sat in their workshops with 4 supposidly trained monkeys all scratching each others heads more than you have the pleasure of driving it.

 

CITROEN Fetch the old school mechanics back and you may get somewhere, these chimps you employ at the moment dont even know the difference between a banana and an apple let alone a tyre from an exhaust. (This is not a dig at all citroen mechanics because i know there are some very good ones out there, pity i have not come accross any yet though)

[coastline taxis]

just an update on my situation

 

i have all wiring tested today and all is ok. The mechanic who checked all the wiring has gone away baffled, as am i! He has suggested that his friend does have dealer standard diagnostic equipment and has succeded where citroen have failed in the past. So as a last ditch attempt he is arranging for my car to go down one day this week for his friend to take a look on the cheap for me. How ever if he fails then there are 2 choices i have,

 

choice 1:- scrap the car and call it a day with c5's and go back to a xantia or 406

 

choice 2:- sell the car for what i would get scrap value, and let somebody who is brave/stupid enough to try and get the car rectified.

 

The main point i am trying to get accross, is if you are considfering purchasing a c5 of any kind, only purchase through a dealer and make sure you get warranty as then if it fails you dont have to foot the bill. Trust me if you buy private like i did i would be 99% sure that you will get problems of some kind and citroen really dont know enough about these cars yet to get it rectified properly. I may look at the c5 again in 5 yrs time when citroen have learnt more about a car they say is supposed to be far more economical and emmision friendly. The only way they worked this out is the simple fact that it fails you that much that it is envirometally friendy due to the fact is it sat in their workshops with 4 supposidly trained monkeys all scratching each others heads more than you have the pleasure of driving it.

 

CITROEN Fetch the old school mechanics back and you may get somewhere, these chimps you employ at the moment dont even know the difference between a banana and an apple let alone a tyre from an exhaust. (This is not a dig at all citroen mechanics because i know there are some very good ones out there, pity i have not come accross any yet though)

hi did you buy this car of ebay by any chance

[coastline taxis]

just an update on my situation

 

i have all wiring tested today and all is ok. The mechanic who checked all the wiring has gone away baffled, as am i! He has suggested that his friend does have dealer standard diagnostic equipment and has succeded where citroen have failed in the past. So as a last ditch attempt he is arranging for my car to go down one day this week for his friend to take a look on the cheap for me. How ever if he fails then there are 2 choices i have,

 

choice 1:- scrap the car and call it a day with c5's and go back to a xantia or 406

 

choice 2:- sell the car for what i would get scrap value, and let somebody who is brave/stupid enough to try and get the car rectified.

 

The main point i am trying to get accross, is if you are considfering purchasing a c5 of any kind, only purchase through a dealer and make sure you get warranty as then if it fails you dont have to foot the bill. Trust me if you buy private like i did i would be 99% sure that you will get problems of some kind and citroen really dont know enough about these cars yet to get it rectified properly. I may look at the c5 again in 5 yrs time when citroen have learnt more about a car they say is supposed to be far more economical and emmision friendly. The only way they worked this out is the simple fact that it fails you that much that it is envirometally friendy due to the fact is it sat in their workshops with 4 supposidly trained monkeys all scratching each others heads more than you have the pleasure of driving it.

 

CITROEN Fetch the old school mechanics back and you may get somewhere, these chimps you employ at the moment dont even know the difference between a banana and an apple let alone a tyre from an exhaust. (This is not a dig at all citroen mechanics because i know there are some very good ones out there, pity i have not come accross any yet though)

hi there did you by any chance buy this car of ebay and what code reader are you using

[Guest c5 headache]

yes, what a mistake, however the chap i bought it off paid £1100 from the auction with the problem, at least i only paid £430 for it, however it has been nothing but headaches since. When he told me how much he paid i felt as though i had robbed him, however many pounds later i regret buying it and very soon will only get a couple of hundred back myself. Citroens printout stated that everything wasd fine other than the fuel pressure pump was not working correctly. when i plugged it in it turned out the code was the egr valve and p1113 so replaced the egr which cleared that code and have been trying to clear the p1113 for too long now. when a friend tested the pump there was plenty of pressure so i know teir printout to be inaccurate. try as i may though just cannot find the cause that is creating the p1113 code.

[myglaren]

If it is any consolation, my brother had remarkably similar problems with a Rover ZR.

It repeatedly went into limp home mode, just after Rover crashed and the warranty died with them.

He took out a private warranty and the garage then spent four months and £3,000 attempting to locate and rectify the fault including a new fuel pump, EMS and god knows what else.

 

He made them take the car back and bought a BMW instead, the ZR went for auction with the fault not cured.

The BMW isn't much better though.

 

Touch wood I have had no problems with my C5 other than very minor ones - the standard rear caliper corrosion being one, everything else just normal wear and tear.

 

It has currently done 123,000 miles and goes fairly well although I do think the Xantia was a better car overall.

 

Have you tried the simple expedient of, half an hour after switchin off the ignition, remove the battery and charge overnight. In the meantime short out the battery terminals with a lightbulb for a couple of minutes, then apply a dead short for half an hour.

 

Reconnect the battery, wait half an hour then restart the car.

 

You will have to reset the time and radio stations, automatic window closing and lights but the upside is that sometimes and in some cases it clears the faults.

 

Long shot but a cheap and easy one.

 

A bonus is that the ECU will 'learn' your driving style and adapt to it, you might even like the car better after that.

[seefive]

hi everyone,

thought i would list a post because my c5 is on the brink of entering the scrapyard. I purchased a c5 hpi as i have had many a xantia and never a problem i thought i would try one. The problem is ever since i have had it, its been in limp mode. It came to me with acitroen printout saying it was a faulty fuel pump which i have later found to be false. I took the car to a friend of mine who tried to do a diagnostics on it prior to purchasing a pricy fuel pump. At first he could not connect to the vehicle so i purchased my own code reader and that read it straight away. It gave me 2 faults which were the egr valve and p1113. Off i went got a second hand egr valve and a air temp probe but the fault of p1113 is still there. I have constantly spoke with citroen who keep telling me different parts to try. I have replaced these parts at a costly expense but still the same code. I was then advised to check my o2 sensor by techbod which when i tested them i did have a faulty 1 so i replaced that but still after a couple of days the fault reappeared. So again speaking with citreon they advised to try a different part, which guess what didnt work. Now they are saying the ecu must be gone so for me to part with £800 which again probably wont sort it. However there is hope, i have found somebody in sheffield who is very helpfull and he told me straight away that the fault code relates back to a problem with the throttle body which techbod had also mentioned, this guy has worked on quite a few c5's and seems to know his stuff. so as a last ditch attempt i have located 1 and is going on the car later today. The reason for this listing is if anybody has any further suggestions i would like to hear them as these c5's are really nice cars but the problems are too many, well the lack of knowledge by citroen lets them down really. The thing that is winding me up with citroen is all they seem to do is say try this part, then when that does not work they say well it must be this part and so on and so on, before you know it you have spent £600 and it works for a couple of months then goes again.

 

 

I've seen several references on this site to some kind of pulley which affects the variable valve timing, causing problems when it goes wrong. May be worth a try?

[techbod]

its electronically controlled but interesting since it hasn't been mentioned and well worth some research, cam sensors would be an issue when considering this problem so an extra area to check, the plot thickens :angry: and who knows we might even sort this illusive problem since Citroen cant then we could sell them the solution :unsure:

[Guest c5 headache]

hi again all,

 

quick question

 

i have been searching all over the net for the correct fuel rail pressure with no joy :( i have spoke with citroen who inform me they are not allowed to tell me allthough he could get it. All it is, if i can prove to the citroen dealer that the fuel pressure is fine and they have wrongly diagnosed this car then they may want to help me a bit more. The car nows runs fine, with no lack or resistance on power just that stupid limp mode, i am starting to think maybe faulty ecu or software, so my thoughts are if i can obtain the correct pressure and my car has that, then maybe approaching citroen with proof of their diagnostics and proof they are wrong then they may meet me halfway with the cost to repair?

 

long shot i know but i wont let it drop :angry: , and since they are still not fully playing ball with the legislation brought out in 2004 i think that they are going to have to start playing ball, it only takes a couple of people approaching the right people and citroen wont have choice.

 

so if anybody can find what the fuel rail pressure should be through anyway possible even if this means reading live data from your own plese post it.

 

many thanks :unsure: ;)

[Guest c5 headache]

or even if anybody has a scrap c5 hpi with pump on and wishes to sell it cheap this would do the same kinda test??? :unsure:

[Guest c5 headache]

just incase anybody does have a pump or the technical data my number is 07910 782110

 

many thanks matt

[Randombloke]

hi again all,

 

quick question

 

i have been searching all over the net for the correct fuel rail pressure with no joy :unsure:

 

so if anybody can find what the fuel rail pressure should be through anyway possible even if this means reading live data from your own plese post it.

 

This is probably a stupid answer so feel free to curse me but:

 

The RTA manual for my C5 has the pressure you require but for a diesel. You need the petrol pressure, so hopefully someone who has the RTA manual for the petrol will post it.

 

If not, then either buy one on Amazon or search the French forums.