C5 Bleeding Brakes And Replacing Front Brake Caliper

[Guest diyjoke]

Hello, new to this but I've found a lot of very useful information already (should have come here first before I tackled what initially appeared to be a simple job of replacing the rear disks). Anyway, the car is an 03, HDI 110 VTR 103k. The brakes haven't been that good in the 18 months that I've had the car - sort of spongy intermittently but effective after one pump. Things have taken a dramatic turn for the worse since I split the rear caliper and gained a hernia replacing the rear disk. Now deteriorated further when I had to change the front off-side caliper as the handbrake mechanism seized and no amount of trying to free it up worked.

Air in the system would seem to be the obvious problem but I've tried the Ezee bleed system and although 20 psi in the system there's a pathetic dribble from each of the nipples. I tried the old two-person pedal down, up, down with still no obvious signs of any air released and have gone through 1.5litres of DOT4.

I then noted with alarm a post by "raymond" that I should have loosened the bleed nipple when winding the old caliper piston in/out and manually cranking the handbrake lever - what are the dire consequences?

Has been suggested that it could be the master cylinder seals; if so, is a seal kit available or just change the unit out?

Any help would be appreciated but if all else fails then I will go to my local indipendant Citroen specialist in Cardiff (they've just quoted me £190 for the cam belt replacement). I've always found them excellent as a last resort but I do like a challenge - otherwise I wouldn't be driving a Citroen, my 8th (2nd C5).

Regards,

No replies yet but I think I'm getting somewhere (but still don't have the answer). It seems that I acted on the advice of 3 Citroen garages which was incorrect. The packaging for the new caliper stated clearly that I should wind the piston out to within 1mm of the pads - but the piston wouldn't wind out and I had no idea what the pentagonal nut was for (and still don't know) but this may be intrinsic to the brake set up. Unable to wind the piston out to the recommended tolerance, I asked for advice and was told by all to push the pedal - makes sense. Don't do this. I don't know why yet but this doesn't work and I think it's because it leaves such a gap in the piston/handbrake set up that the pedal hits the floor before the brakes come on. What I need to work out now (or ideally be advised what to do) is how to correct this. I'll try winding the piston as it's had some movement and invest in a pentagonal nut driver but I have no idea what this will do. I'll fiddle about with the old caliper on the bench to see what if anything happens driving the pentagonal nut and re-post if I find out anything worthwhile just in case anyone else is interested?

[paul.h]

In the French ETAI manual, after fitting new front brake pads it says to pump the pedal many times with the engine running. Possibly you have not pumped the pedal enough to get the piston out far enough to reduce the pedal travel. Bleeding the brakes it mentions using usual 2 man method (front left, front right, rear left, rear right), but if air has got in to the abs secondary circuit you will need to use the dealer diagnostic tool.

There is no mention of doing anything with a large nut.

[Guest diyjoke]

In the French ETAI manual, after fitting new front brake pads it says to pump the pedal many times with the engine running. Possibly you have not pumped the pedal enough to get the piston out far enough to reduce the pedal travel. Bleeding the brakes it mentions using usual 2 man method (front left, front right, rear left, rear right), but if air has got in to the abs secondary circuit you will need to use the dealer diagnostic tool.

There is no mention of doing anything with a large nut.

Thank you for taking the time to provide the advice and I'm sure the Citroen mechanics that told me to do this acted in good faith with the same information. Maybe this is particular to the replacement unit that I bought bu the instructions were VERY clear, typed in bold, underlined and LARGE type: "WARNING DO NOT MOVE THE HANDBRAKE LEVER!! DO NOT ROTATE THE PISTON!!" For information the rest read: the caliper should be fitted to thte car and the gap measured between the disc and the pads (DO NOT OPERATE THE FOOT PEDAL). The total clearance must not be more than 1mm. If the gap is out of tolerance (blah, blah) use the correct tool to turn the piston out (anti clockwise). To turn the piston you must use the correct tool on either the face of the piston or via the access plug at the rear of the caliper, this is dependant upon application". This plug I assume to be the five-sided nut, but there's no further mention of 'application' or what this refers to?

I would have been happy to do this and continue with the rest of the instructions but the piston wouldn't move out when turned in the correct direction so I resorted to the telephone calls and then the advice given. When I tackled this again yesterday; handbrake off, took the wheel off there was about 8mm gap. Obviously this has to be taken up, hence the excessive pedal travel which even after pumping repeatedly does move the piston but doesn't provide effective braking. I still don't understand the mechanical forces driving the piston back out to this degree but will next try the access plug. I've found the tool for this available from several tool suppliers on the net for <£5.00 and is quoted as a SEALEY FX029, a 3/4" drive, 12.5mm pentagonal socket.

Thanks again and any further advice will be gladly received and greatly appreciated and I'll post further with any progress or not.

Kind regards,

[paul.h]

On the Saabs I have had, the handbrake worked on the rear calipers. Here you would remove a bolt on the calipers to access an allen headed screw which wound the piston in and out to allow caliper and pad removal and on refitting, adjustment to give the right clearance. With your 8mm gap I guess you have re-used the old pads.

In the ETAI manual, you can also use pressure bleeding. It says to use 2 bar which is 29 psi. Still need to use the diagnostic tool though to bleed the abs parts.

[coastline taxis]

On the Saabs I have had, the handbrake worked on the rear calipers. Here you would remove a bolt on the calipers to access an allen headed screw which wound the piston in and out to allow caliper and pad removal and on refitting, adjustment to give the right clearance. With your 8mm gap I guess you have re-used the old pads.

In the ETAI manual, you can also use pressure bleeding. It says to use 2 bar which is 29 psi. Still need to use the diagnostic tool though to bleed the abs parts.

HI

bit confused are you trying to replace front caliper or get air out of the system because if you have air in the system then you wont be able to pump the front caliper out these c5 are one of the easiest we do. Also if youve moved the handbrake lever before moving the piston out then the caliper is shagged and you need to get a new one. Dont take this the wrong way but im struggling to understand what you want to do so could you explain it to me like i was a 2 year old

Are you having trouble with front caliper

Are you having trouble bleeding the system

Are you having trouble with the handbrake

best regards

steve

[Guest diyjoke]

HI

bit confused are you trying to replace front caliper or get air out of the system because if you have air in the system then you wont be able to pump the front caliper out these c5 are one of the easiest we do. Also if youve moved the handbrake lever before moving the piston out then the caliper is shagged and you need to get a new one. Dont take this the wrong way but im struggling to understand what you want to do so could you explain it to me like i was a 2 year old

Are you having trouble with front caliper

Are you having trouble bleeding the system

Are you having trouble with the handbrake

best regards

steve

Thanks for the advice to date and I apologise for the confusion I've lent to this. Initially I thought this was a brake beeding problem as the symptoms suggested this but now I'm convinced I've done something wrong when I replaced the caliper.

So,

Are you having trouble with front caliper - yes I'm having serious trouble with a recently replaced front caliper.

Are you having trouble bleeding the system - No. I was mistaken about the root cause of the problem.

Are you having trouble with the handbrake - I'm having trouble with the handbrake insomuch as it is suffering due to the changeout of the caliper. It appears to be on when applied but I think all the work is being done by the near-side.

 

 

 

From the top: the off-side handbrake mechanism seized so I changed the caliper. With dire warnings about fitting this incorrectly splashed all over the replacement caliper I still managed to get it wrong somehow. The instructions stated that I should wind the piston out to meet the pads with 1mm clearance (old pads and old disc) so there was a bit of winding to do. Unfortunately the piston wouldn't wind out so I asked local Citroen garages what do and they said pump the brake and the piston would come out. I did it and now regret it. I put in my recent post about the fitting instructions and I'll be honest this wasn't adhered to. I'm a little peeved about the prospect of fitting another one as the latest cost me £91.00 (and two litres of brake fluid). Although the piston was moved (by the pedal) before the handbrake was operated - the fitting instructions went on to state that once the caliper had been wound out refitting of the hanbrake cable should be done by slackening off the cable adjuster and move the cable to the lever "DO NOT MOVE THE LEVER TOWARDS THE CABLE, ADJUSTMENT WILL BE LOST".

I can't say with any confidence that once the piston had initially been moved by pressing the pedal that a) it came out far enough; :lol: it didn't somehow retract before the handbrake was operated - either by air still in there or due to some other, unknown forces such as I found the last time I took the wheel off and saw approximately 8mm gap between piston and pad.

Is moving the handbrake lever before the piston is out properly really terminal? Is there no hope for this shiny new caliper and isn't the tool for moving the pentagonal nut going to save me 90 quid?

Thanks again for all the help but especially your patience, it is greatly appreciated and if you need further clarification on any of this please ask and I'll do my best but you have probably already realised you're dealing with a willing but not so able numpty.

Kind regards,

[Guest gs fan]

Thanks for the advice to date and I apologise for the confusion I've lent to this. Initially I thought this was a brake beeding problem as the symptoms suggested this but now I'm convinced I've done something wrong when I replaced the caliper.

So,

Are you having trouble with front caliper - yes I'm having serious trouble with a recently replaced front caliper.

Are you having trouble bleeding the system - No. I was mistaken about the root cause of the problem.

Are you having trouble with the handbrake - I'm having trouble with the handbrake insomuch as it is suffering due to the changeout of the caliper. It appears to be on when applied but I think all the work is being done by the near-side.

From the top: the off-side handbrake mechanism seized so I changed the caliper. With dire warnings about fitting this incorrectly splashed all over the replacement caliper I still managed to get it wrong somehow. The instructions stated that I should wind the piston out to meet the pads with 1mm clearance (old pads and old disc) so there was a bit of winding to do. Unfortunately the piston wouldn't wind out so I asked local Citroen garages what do and they said pump the brake and the piston would come out. I did it and now regret it. I put in my recent post about the fitting instructions and I'll be honest this wasn't adhered to. I'm a little peeved about the prospect of fitting another one as the latest cost me £91.00 (and two litres of brake fluid). Although the piston was moved (by the pedal) before the handbrake was operated - the fitting instructions went on to state that once the caliper had been wound out refitting of the hanbrake cable should be done by slackening off the cable adjuster and move the cable to the lever "DO NOT MOVE THE LEVER TOWARDS THE CABLE, ADJUSTMENT WILL BE LOST".

I can't say with any confidence that once the piston had initially been moved by pressing the pedal that a) it came out far enough; :lol: it didn't somehow retract before the handbrake was operated - either by air still in there or due to some other, unknown forces such as I found the last time I took the wheel off and saw approximately 8mm gap between piston and pad.

Is moving the handbrake lever before the piston is out properly really terminal? Is there no hope for this shiny new caliper and isn't the tool for moving the pentagonal nut going to save me 90 quid?

Thanks again for all the help but especially your patience, it is greatly appreciated and if you need further clarification on any of this please ask and I'll do my best but you have probably already realised you're dealing with a willing but not so able numpty.

Kind regards,

Oh dear sounds from the way you describe your brake pedal feel and problems that the caliper may be shagged. This may be due to the wrong procedure in winding back the caliper . I say this because I made a total mess of mine and like you if I'd had the correct info' which is well available on this forum from the people who have done the job (like Coastline and others) I'd have saved a packet and alot of grief. I had to take mine to the local dealer who said the caliper needed replaced (£210 fitted) I had replaced brake pads on all my previous cars with no issues ,but not so easy with the C5.

The rear caliper issues and removal problems and procedures are well documented here too ( see "search" Rear Brakes ... You might be best to take the car to your local indy' Citroen people and let them sort out the faults this , then like me keep an eye on this forum for good advice prior to tackling most jobs in the future . Just remember faulty brakes could be a life-threat to you and others , you need to get them fixed ASAP!

Good luck.....

[coastline taxis]

Oh dear sounds from the way you describe your brake pedal feel and problems that the caliper may be shagged. This may be due to the wrong procedure in winding back the caliper . I say this because I made a total mess of mine and like you if I'd had the correct info' which is well available on this forum from the people who have done the job (like Coastline and others) I'd have saved a packet and alot of grief. I had to take mine to the local dealer who said the caliper needed replaced (£210 fitted) I had replaced brake pads on all my previous cars with no issues ,but not so easy with the C5.

The rear caliper issues and removal problems and procedures are well documented here too ( see "search" Rear Brakes ... You might be best to take the car to your local indy' Citroen people and let them sort out the faults this , then like me keep an eye on this forum for good advice prior to tackling most jobs in the future . Just remember faulty brakes could be a life-threat to you and others , you need to get them fixed ASAP!

Good luck.....

Sorry but your caliper is Knackerd i think that youve misread the instructions and tried to wind the caliper out by turning it. So get yourself another one and the fitting is as follows

 

1 This is assuming youve already removed the old caliper and clamped the flexi

2 Dont touch/pull/push/move anything on the caliper when you get it as its set up correctley from the manufacturer

3 Refit the new caliper and pads but not the handbrake cable

4 Bleed the caliper

5 Now pump the pedal 10 times or till the pedal feels right (this has just wound the piston out for you)

6 Now check to see if wheel can be turned while pedal is pressed( remember that youve just put new pads in so it might take a few miles for the pedal to seem normal) to make sure the caliper is working

7 Now connect the handbrake lever

8 Go inside the car and work handbrake 10 times

9 Pull handbrake up 5 notches

10 Remove rear ashtray and youll see a 10mm nut put a long reach socket on it and tighten it till both front wheels lock up

11 work handbrake lever another 10 times and then try your handbrake to see if its holding. You might have to repeat 9 and 10

12 put the kettle on youve just finished

Hope this helps you

[coastline taxis]

Sorry but your caliper is Knackerd i think that youve misread the instructions and tried to wind the caliper out by turning it. So get yourself another one and the fitting is as follows

 

1 This is assuming youve already removed the old caliper and clamped the flexi

2 Dont touch/pull/push/move anything on the caliper when you get it as its set up correctley from the manufacturer

3 Refit the new caliper and pads but not the handbrake cable

4 Bleed the caliper

5 Now pump the pedal 10 times or till the pedal feels right (this has just wound the piston out for you)

6 Now check to see if wheel can be turned while pedal is pressed( remember that youve just put new pads in so it might take a few miles for the pedal to seem normal) to make sure the caliper is working

7 Now connect the handbrake lever

8 Go inside the car and work handbrake 10 times

9 Pull handbrake up 5 notches

10 Remove rear ashtray and youll see a 10mm nut put a long reach socket on it and tighten it till both front wheels lock up

11 work handbrake lever another 10 times and then try your handbrake to see if its holding. You might have to repeat 9 and 10

12 put the kettle on youve just finished

Hope this helps you

Sorry forgot to mention to slacken handbrake cable off and take the cable to the lever and NEVER THE LEVER TO THE CABLE

[Guest diyjoke]

Sorry forgot to mention to slacken handbrake cable off and take the cable to the lever and NEVER THE LEVER TO THE CABLE

Marvellous, I've just picked up the new, new caliper and will be following your advice albeit this is not too far removed from what I did last time but obviously far enough for disaster. (I did push the brake pedal as advised by Citroen garages but I also moved the handbrake lever to the cable and not the other way around). I'm understandably a little apprehensive that there may be some unique idiosyncrasies associated with pattern items as the instructions included warn against pressing anything.

Just for information, here's the full fitting instructions supplied:

Handbrake caliper adjustment intructions

DO NOT MOVE THE HANDBRAKE LEVER!!

DO NOT ROTATE THE PISTON!!

WARNING

This Caliper must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

THE MAJORITY OF FITTING PROBLEMS OCCUR IN CASES WHERE THE HAND BRAKE LEVER HAS BEEN ACTUATED BEFORE FITTING.

1.The Caliper should be fitted to the car, and the gap measured between the disc and the pads (Do not operate the foot pedal)Tthe total clearance must not be more than 1mm. If the gap is out of tolerance, remove the pads, and if necessary the Caliper itself, and use th correct tool to turn the piston out (anti clockwise) to come to the correct clearance. To turn the piston you must use the correct tool on either the visible face of the piston or via the access plug at the rear of the caliper, this is dependent upon application.

2. Refit the Caliper, and check that the gap is now 1mm.

3. Slacken the handbrake cable and bring it to the hand brake lever, do not move the lever towards the cable, adjustment will be lost!!. Tighten the cable until the lever is about to move.

4. Bleed the system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

5. Any final adjustments will be made automatically when you road test the car as the self adjustment mechanism is set at the factory.

 

This will be a leap of faith to contradict the instructions (again) provided with the unit but what have I to lose (£91.00 initially and then there's the divorce which may be looming as "Ethel" is rapidly losing patience and more significantly in her eyes, contributions to the holiday slush fund. By her own admission she's not mechanically minded but aware that Citroen are innovative in their design however, if I try to blag her that I need another one as there are 7 calipers on a C5 I think she might smell a rat.)

"Once more into the breech"; I'll keep you informed of progress or otherwise. Thanks again to all who have contributed so far and notwithstanding my lack of success as yet I take comfort in the knowledge that others can feel my pain and wish to help.

Kind regards,

[coastline taxis]

Marvellous, I've just picked up the new, new caliper and will be following your advice albeit this is not too far removed from what I did last time but obviously far enough for disaster. (I did push the brake pedal as advised by Citroen garages but I also moved the handbrake lever to the cable and not the other way around). I'm understandably a little apprehensive that there may be some unique idiosyncrasies associated with pattern items as the instructions included warn against pressing anything.

Just for information, here's the full fitting instructions supplied:

Handbrake caliper adjustment intructions

DO NOT MOVE THE HANDBRAKE LEVER!!

DO NOT ROTATE THE PISTON!!

WARNING

This Caliper must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

THE MAJORITY OF FITTING PROBLEMS OCCUR IN CASES WHERE THE HAND BRAKE LEVER HAS BEEN ACTUATED BEFORE FITTING.

1.The Caliper should be fitted to the car, and the gap measured between the disc and the pads (Do not operate the foot pedal)Tthe total clearance must not be more than 1mm. If the gap is out of tolerance, remove the pads, and if necessary the Caliper itself, and use th correct tool to turn the piston out (anti clockwise) to come to the correct clearance. To turn the piston you must use the correct tool on either the visible face of the piston or via the access plug at the rear of the caliper, this is dependent upon application.

2. Refit the Caliper, and check that the gap is now 1mm.

3. Slacken the handbrake cable and bring it to the hand brake lever, do not move the lever towards the cable, adjustment will be lost!!. Tighten the cable until the lever is about to move.

4. Bleed the system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

5. Any final adjustments will be made automatically when you road test the car as the self adjustment mechanism is set at the factory.

 

This will be a leap of faith to contradict the instructions (again) provided with the unit but what have I to lose (£91.00 initially and then there's the divorce which may be looming as "Ethel" is rapidly losing patience and more significantly in her eyes, contributions to the holiday slush fund. By her own admission she's not mechanically minded but aware that Citroen are innovative in their design however, if I try to blag her that I need another one as there are 7 calipers on a C5 I think she might smell a rat.)

"Once more into the breech"; I'll keep you informed of progress or otherwise. Thanks again to all who have contributed so far and notwithstanding my lack of success as yet I take comfort in the knowledge that others can feel my pain and wish to help.

Kind regards,

[/quot

The words depending on application say it all. Youve been following the wrong instruction that have come with the caliper. It tells you not to turn the piston then it tells you to turn the piston. Anyway youl get it right this time got a 100% confidence in ya

[Guest diyjoke]

Marvellous, I've just picked up the new, new caliper and will be following your advice albeit this is not too far removed from what I did last time but obviously far enough for disaster. (I did push the brake pedal as advised by Citroen garages but I also moved the handbrake lever to the cable and not the other way around). I'm understandably a little apprehensive that there may be some unique idiosyncrasies associated with pattern items as the instructions included warn against pressing anything.

Just for information, here's the full fitting instructions supplied:

Handbrake caliper adjustment intructions

DO NOT MOVE THE HANDBRAKE LEVER!!

DO NOT ROTATE THE PISTON!!

WARNING

This Caliper must be fitted in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

THE MAJORITY OF FITTING PROBLEMS OCCUR IN CASES WHERE THE HAND BRAKE LEVER HAS BEEN ACTUATED BEFORE FITTING.

1.The Caliper should be fitted to the car, and the gap measured between the disc and the pads (Do not operate the foot pedal)Tthe total clearance must not be more than 1mm. If the gap is out of tolerance, remove the pads, and if necessary the Caliper itself, and use th correct tool to turn the piston out (anti clockwise) to come to the correct clearance. To turn the piston you must use the correct tool on either the visible face of the piston or via the access plug at the rear of the caliper, this is dependent upon application.

2. Refit the Caliper, and check that the gap is now 1mm.

3. Slacken the handbrake cable and bring it to the hand brake lever, do not move the lever towards the cable, adjustment will be lost!!. Tighten the cable until the lever is about to move.

4. Bleed the system in accordance with the manufacturers instructions.

5. Any final adjustments will be made automatically when you road test the car as the self adjustment mechanism is set at the factory.

 

This will be a leap of faith to contradict the instructions (again) provided with the unit but what have I to lose (£91.00 initially and then there's the divorce which may be looming as "Ethel" is rapidly losing patience and more significantly in her eyes, contributions to the holiday slush fund. By her own admission she's not mechanically minded but aware that Citroen are innovative in their design however, if I try to blag her that I need another one as there are 7 calipers on a C5 I think she might smell a rat.)

"Once more into the breech"; I'll keep you informed of progress or otherwise. Thanks again to all who have contributed so far and notwithstanding my lack of success as yet I take comfort in the knowledge that others can feel my pain and wish to help.

Kind regards,

The words depending on application say it all. Youve been following the wrong instruction that have come with the caliper. It tells you not to turn the piston then it tells you to turn the piston. Anyway youl get it right this time got a 100% confidence in ya

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Calliper change went swimmingly. Lousy fitting instructions supplied with the calliper - I'll be trying to get my money back. I've another, unrelated braking fault and would obviously be glad of any further advice. I'll post the next one as a new one (this is getting a bit protracted). Fantastic. Thanks again,

kind regards,

Mac