Techbod Advice Please Its Back P1112

[coastline taxis]

got advice earlier on this week on this week about p1112 and car was fixed. been on the road 2 days now and done 600 miles and it broke down again today. so we plugged it in and guess whats back p1112 and hes brought his friend p1138 along with him both codes cum up as undocumented so the scanner dosnt say what they are. this time though it will run for 2-3 mins then cut out clear the codes and it fires up again also if you take the key out the engine runs on for 2-3 seconds before stopping. checked for loose/blocked/split pipes and all wiring in place/unbrocken/secure

any advice taken. have got a car that im breaking so i have every bit that can be swapped over b4 buying so will try any suggestions

cheers

[techbod]

P1138 High pressure rail sensor fault / Lack of HO2S 2 switching - Sensor indicates rich

EDC15C2 - Fuel pressure. Stop requested but regulator still active.

sounds like the fuel pressure regulator to me like over fueling?

the biggest problem with this engine is HDI/HPI because its fuel pressure related and many problems come from that

[coastline taxis]

P1138 High pressure rail sensor fault / Lack of HO2S 2 switching - Sensor indicates rich

EDC15C2 - Fuel pressure. Stop requested but regulator still active.

sounds like the fuel pressure regulator to me like over fueling?

the biggest problem with this engine is HDI/HPI because its fuel pressure related and many problems come from that

only been doing the diagnostic side for a year now so im still learning so bear with me. would that cause the 1112 code to appear as well and does the regulator have to be coded in or just a simple replace

[techbod]

simple replace mate when its stuffed it cant be repaired

ive been doing diagnostic for too many years and still learning :o

[coastline taxis]

simple replace mate when its stuffed it cant be repaired

ive been doing diagnostic for too many years and still learning :o

Just wish i could learn a bit faster though. Anyway would that cause the p1112 code aswell or is that another issue. Replaced the ait sensor and m.a.f and it ran for 2 days and now cuming up aswell

[techbod]

its called the domino effect and you need to look at the first thing that comes into play,

because newer cars are dependant on high tech its ECU controlled so software driven so its back to basics and CAN does that and very basic but that's a 2008 project which is working on

I could explain this in greater detail but life is short

you are a master but you don't see it yet

im impressed because your honest and your a learner which is what I am we never stop learning, i

ime old sod but the Internet has broadening my horizons

[iannez]

p-1138 is a down stream oxygen sensor heating fault mate.

this might come in handy so here is some info on dtc's.

 

FIRST LETTER

B = Body

C = Chassis

P = Powertrain

U = Network

 

FIRST NUMBER.

if the first number starts with 0 its a standard obd dtc code for any car.

if it starts with 1 its a dealer only dtc.

 

SECOND NUMBER.

1 = Fuel & Air Metering

2 = Fuel & Air Metering - Injectors only

3 = Ignition System or Misfire Monitor

4 = Auxillary Emission Control System (Meaning EGR, Catalyst & EVAP systems)

5 = Vehicle Speed Control and Engine Idle Control

6 = Computer Output Circuits

7 = Transmission

9 = Transmission

 

LAST 2 NUMBERS.

the last 2 are a reference to the exact fault on the system at fault and need to be looked up.

 

so your code p-1138 p=power train, 1=dealer dtc and 1=fuel and air metering.

as you can see if you know how to read the first 3 digits of the dtc you have a rough idea where the problem is.

[techbod]

a very good example indeed ^ but remember the code is only a guide to the fault and that's where even the dealers fall down ( or not ) as they use this to fit new parts instead of telling the truth, as I have pointed out many times like the EGR valve ? they replace it when it only needs cleaning out so its down to pricing rather than saving you money,

 

another example of this is a vacuum line that's come off and effects the fuel/air mix then you get the o2 sensor fault code when nothing is wrong with it ( vacuum lines are not sensors so leave no codes ) but they effect those sensors in the system

[coastline taxis]

a very good example indeed ^ but remember the code is only a guide to the fault and that's where even the dealers fall down ( or not ) as they use this to fit new parts instead of telling the truth, as I have pointed out many times like the EGR valve ? they replace it when it only needs cleaning out so its down to pricing rather than saving you money,

 

another example of this is a vacuum line that's come off and effects the fuel/air mix then you get the o2 sensor fault code when nothing is wrong with it ( vacuum lines are not sensors so leave no codes ) but they effect those sensors in the system

changed the pressure regulator on the back of the pump and still no difference anymore ideas just to sum up the car keeps cutting out and comes up with the following codes p1112 and p1138 clear them and car drives 2-3oo yards and cuts out

steps taken so far

replaced maf sensor/ait sensor/diesel pressure regulator

ckecked wiring and pipes all secure and intact and no leaks

any ideas at all

[techbod]

P1112 Intake air temperature (IAT) sensor circuit Intermittent low voltage

EDC15C2 - Diesel high pressure monitoring function. Pressure lower than the minimum pressure. (leak).

MM4MP2 - Motorised throttle control.

 

P1138 High pressure rail sensor fault / Lack of HO2S 2 switching - Sensor indicates rich

 

P1138

For EDC15C2, as fitted to DW10 engines, this fault code indicates a power supply interruption to the rail pressure sensor. There was a modified intermediate harness supplied, which had to be fitted with a new sensor and harness retaining clip :D

[coastline taxis]

P1112 Intake air temperature (IAT) sensor circuit Intermittent low voltage

EDC15C2 - Diesel high pressure monitoring function. Pressure lower than the minimum pressure. (leak).

MM4MP2 - Motorised throttle control.

 

P1138 High pressure rail sensor fault / Lack of HO2S 2 switching - Sensor indicates rich

 

P1138

For EDC15C2, as fitted to DW10 engines, this fault code indicates a power supply interruption to the rail pressure sensor. There was a modified intermediate harness supplied, which had to be fitted with a new sensor and harness retaining clip :D

got it got it got got got got it.

it was a wire in the harness that had been rubbing up against the plastic casing and eventually ended up breaking in 2. dont ask me what wire it was as i just dont know only no that the car is now running and theres no codes showing up., so after 3 days and 3 parts ive now learnt that when a code shows up it dosnt mean that the sensor is knackered what in fact it means is that the sensor is working fine and has detected that there is a problem on the system that it is monitorig, but sensor must screw up so could someone more experienced than myself tell me a way to test a sensor and how to find out what voltage should be going to each sensor

[techbod]

that's very good news mate and its worth others remembering this for future reference when it raises its ugly head in the future :D

[coastline taxis]

that's very good news mate and its worth others remembering this for future reference when it raises its ugly head in the future :lol:

aaaaaaagggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

car has ran now for 2 days then went and broke down again tonight code p1138 back again.guess i spoke to soon

anyone got any ideas

[techbod]

not quite? as you found the problem and I still think is that part of the wiring breaking down, you found only 1 bad part so the wiring could be damaged in other places due to it shorting and that could burn the wiring further back and weaken it so when you drive for a while it overheats then it shorts out so it might be worth changing or at least check that part of the loom :lol:

[coastline taxis]

not quite? as you found the problem and I still think is that part of the wiring breaking down, you found only 1 bad part so the wiring could be damaged in other places due to it shorting and that could burn the wiring further back and weaken it so when you drive for a while it overheats then it shorts out so it might be worth changing or at least check that part of the loom :lol:

Enine speed 803 rpm 3000 rpm

battery 14.2 volts 14.2 volts

coolant temp 72 84

intake air temp 8 7

delivered fuel pressure 298 494-507-533

fuel temp 14 22

accelerator pedal position 0 21

injection pulse 0.59 volts 0.35

pilot injection begin 12 41

injection begin 1 7

injection v 79 79

sensor ref 4.99 4.99

fuel pressure regulator 15 13

duty waste gate valve 88 88

exhaust gas recurculation (1) 99 5

exhaust gas recurculation (2) 78 5

map 1011 1599

air flow (kg/h) 35 266

air flow (mg/s) 347 705

fuel amount (mm3s) 7 0

adaption injection (1) -1 0

adaption injection (2) -2 -2

adaption injection (3) 0 1

adaption injection (4) 2 1

fuel amount idle 7 0

maximum fuel 28 47

fuel pump relay on on

deactivate plunger no yes

fan high speed off off

fan low speed off off

glow system off off

 

 

 

these are the reading im getting of live data when there are no trouble codes on. With the anti pollution fault and engine management light on its the same reading apart from the fuel pressure regulator which reads 17although once or twice it has shown 1. anyway by these readings have i got a fault on the high pressure pump as the pressure is not constant at 3000 rpm also is there a fault on the injectors

weve tried a new fuel filter in today and the car ran great for 2 hours then up it came p1138 undocumented

any ideas

[coastline taxis]

Enine speed 803 rpm/3000 rpm

battery 14.2 volts/14.2 volts

coolant temp 72/84

intake air temp 8 / 7

delivered fuel pressure 298/ 494-507-533

fuel temp 14/22

accelerator pedal position 0 /21

injection pulse 0.59 volts/0.35

pilot injection begin 12/ 41

injection begin 1/7

injection v 79/79

sensor ref 4.99/ 4.99

fuel pressure regulator 15/13

duty waste gate valve 88/88

exhaust gas recurculation (1) 99/5

exhaust gas recurculation (2) 78/5

map 1011/1599

air flow (kg/h) 35/266

air flow (mg/s) 347/705

fuel amount (mm3s) 7/0

adaption injection (1) -1/ 0

adaption injection (2) -2/-2

adaption injection (3) 0/1

adaption injection (4) 2/1

fuel amount idle 7 /0

maximum fuel 24/ 47

fuel pump relay on/on

deactivate plunger no/yes

fan high speed off/ off

fan low speed off /off

glow system off /off

 

these are the reading im getting of live data when there are no trouble codes on. With the anti pollution fault and engine management light on its the same reading apart from the fuel pressure regulator which reads 17although once or twice it has shown 1. anyway by these readings have i got a fault on the high pressure pump as the pressure is not constant at 3000 rpm also is there a fault on the injectors

weve tried a new fuel filter in today and the car ran great for 2 hours then up it came p1138 undocumented

any ideas

[techbod]

what I'm seeing here is the fuel is being cut off at certain revs which leads me back to that wire you found a short in ( think of a wire that gets hot because when its hot enough it looses continuity ) the shield round the wire melts so the wire could be burned further down and the same problem is there and that's why the made an upgrade loom to overcome this problem, its all down to modern cars when they changed the thickness of the wire to save on cost/weight for so called fuel consumption but the problem they created was you get blips of over speaking with too much power the older cars have much thicker wire so don't suffer this problem so much unless excessive power amps are used without fitting relays to control the power, basically you need to strip the old wires out and replace them or fit the new loom and see if that sorts it it has to be something in that area because you have results on your work then it reappears and that tell me its an overheating wire. just an idea I have :lol:

[coastline taxis]

what I'm seeing here is the fuel is being cut off at certain revs which leads me back to that wire you found a short in ( think of a wire that gets hot because when its hot enough it looses continuity ) the shield round the wire melts so the wire could be burned further down and the same problem is there and that's why the made an upgrade loom to overcome this problem, its all down to modern cars when they changed the thickness of the wire to save on cost/weight for so called fuel consumption but the problem they created was you get blips of over speaking with too much power the older cars have much thicker wire so don't suffer this problem so much unless excessive power amps are used without fitting relays to control the power, basically you need to strip the old wires out and replace them or fit the new loom and see if that sorts it it has to be something in that area because you have results on your work then it reappears and that tell me its an overheating wire. just an idea I have :lol:

hear what your saying and have read about the wiring upgrade for the loom but (and there always is a one) my local dealers are saying that there isnt one and theyve never heard of it. So is it a case of cutting down the loom and checking every inch of the wire or just replace the wire regardless also is there any kind of shortcuts or do"s and donts that you know about

cheers

[techbod]

cant understand how they don't know of the new loom that was from Citroen/PSA group I got the information from :lol: but as you say there is no short cut and I would rip out and replace to save time and stress

[coastline taxis]

cant understand how they don't know of the new loom that was from Citroen/PSA group I got the information from :rolleyes: but as you say there is no short cut and I would rip out and replace to save time and stress

ok stripped harness back an replaced the wire put car back on road no fault codes present ran 2 hours then came up anti pollution fault and code p1138. anyway the snapon guy came round last night and scanner was updated so when plugged in it is now stating that p1138 is the fuel pressure regulator which is what ive been told on hear but the pressure regulator has already been replaced and new wiring so up to now this is what happens

p1112 replaced AIT sensor car ran 8 hours b4 fault came back along withp1138

Codes cleared car ran 2 hours then faults came back

Fuel pressure regulator changed car ran 4 hours then fault back(not p1112 this time )

Wiring checked and repaired car ran 6 hours then fault back

Fuel rail sensor changed car ran 3 hours then fault back

Fuel filter changed car ran 3 hours then fault back

 

 

all pipes have been checked and wiring/multiplugs etc code p1112 has just disapeared altogether and just left with p1138, at first the car was cutting out when the faults apeared but now it still runs so there has been some improvement. Could the fault be inside the high pressure pump where the regulator sits. untill the fault appears the car is perfect with bags of power and shuts down as soon as you turn the key and when fault is on car is sluggish and when key is turned off the engine runs for 2 to 3 seconds before stopping

[techbod]

hmmm interesting? obviously is fuel pressure related or the lack of it which could be fuel is being cut off and you should get those codes so you need to look at the fuel feed and that's the fuel pump, lift pump in the fuel tank, wiring to any fuel feed items loosing power due to poor connection live or earth.

 

problem with a bad earth is when it over heats it becomes live and burns then you loose continuity this is often seen on the battery earth when the wire is aged so looses stability and engine cuts out and as you have replaced all the main parts except the lift pump and if that was sticking/ loosing power it would shut the fuel off,

 

other not so obvious things are the fuel cap seal and tank vent and they could throw an emissions fault because they are linked to the EVAP system and not so easy to explain but hopefully some of the things Ive mentioned could assist on things you might have missed,

the codes your getting are not so important as they are only doing what they should because of fuel cut off issue so no components are at fault

[kfk]

Casting my eyes over this posting.......clarification over the title please........an RLZ engine is fitted to the petrol HPI......are you talking about the RHZ engine as fitted to the Diesel HDI ?

[kfk]

If your talking about Diesel have you checked the fuel pump in the tank....is it noisy....could it be failing....do you have one you could try in the car your breaking?

 

A Pcode is logged when the computer notices a measurement/parameter that is out of tolerance.....it doesnt mean the component is faulty, it merely points you in the area you need to start checking. Checking consists of ensuring conections are good, shortcircuits dont exist, voltage and earths exist where required and that whatever component on the end of the wire is serviceable. After this you have the other issues to consider that arnt electrical......for instance.....if you are lacking fuel at the injectors is it becuase you lack fuel in the tank.....and just because theres fuel in the tank is it able to get out and up to the engine?.....the fuel regulator will produce faults where insuffient fuel is present....if the scavenge pump is lacking supply pressure the computer will controll the regulator to give maximum fuel, if it still cant get enough fuel the car will look at the fuel pressure sensor, see lack of pressure and log this as a fault..........so back to the question......is the pump in the tank able to supply sufficient fuel (filter on pump not blocked) and does it fail when it gets hot due to overheating?

[coastline taxis]

If your talking about Diesel have you checked the fuel pump in the tank....is it noisy....could it be failing....do you have one you could try in the car your breaking?

 

A Pcode is logged when the computer notices a measurement/parameter that is out of tolerance.....it doesnt mean the component is faulty, it merely points you in the area you need to start checking. Checking consists of ensuring conections are good, shortcircuits dont exist, voltage and earths exist where required and that whatever component on the end of the wire is serviceable. After this you have the other issues to consider that arnt electrical......for instance.....if you are lacking fuel at the injectors is it becuase you lack fuel in the tank.....and just because theres fuel in the tank is it able to get out and up to the engine?.....the fuel regulator will produce faults where insuffient fuel is present....if the scavenge pump is lacking supply pressure the computer will controll the regulator to give maximum fuel, if it still cant get enough fuel the car will look at the fuel pressure sensor, see lack of pressure and log this as a fault..........so back to the question......is the pump in the tank able to supply sufficient fuel (filter on pump not blocked) and does it fail when it gets hot due to overheating?

Hi

sorry for delay at getting back to you but weve been flat out. anyway swapped the intank pump over and car ran for 3 hours and fault codes back on. cured the car cutting out that side of the problem turned out to be the fusebox where the multiplug goes in move it about and the engine was cutting out so that side of it has been sorted so now the problem is as follows

clear code p1138 and start the car up .we can now run the car for as long as we like and it will tick over as long as we want it to providing we dont turn it off. when we do turn it off the engine will then run on for 2 to 3 seconds before it stops then when the car is started up it comes up anti p/f and puts the light on and code p1138 is back. so my line of thinking is now as follows

1 the injectors arnt shutting down straight away and still allowing fuel in

2 its running on due to oil in the pots (the car doesnt throw any smoke out or use any oil)

any thought please

[techbod]

this guy seems to know a lot about this engine and this is his answer and im leaning toward his answer ( copied from the picasso forum ) and injectors could be the problem.

how to make your own injector test kit.

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

 

canyondust Oct 28 2008, 01:18 AM Post #6

 

 

1.8 HDI Exclusive

 

 

Group: Members

Posts: 1,134

Joined: 9-December 07

Member No.: 9,443

 

 

 

Tank pump should produce 7-8Bar into the filter housing.

 

Preheat system I dont see has any great bearing on the current issue.

 

The high pressure fuel regulator wont cause the engine to 'run on' as in theory your injectors at key off should all be closed.

 

Monitoring the rail sensor (or from live data) during key on engine off, crank, idle, and say 2k may be worth doing out of interest to get some indication of the pump performance and possibly monitor the output pressure regulator.

 

The issue sounds like an injector problem rather than anything else. Ideally looking at what is known as injector adaptations (this is the amount of delivered fuel (in mm3/stroke) each injector has to be adjusted from the map data to produce the correct crank acceleration - or in other words correct combustion) and can be taken from the diagnostic port. This could give a quick a and clear indication of a faulty injector(s).

The leak back test is also very worth while and I would imagine most garages have the equipment - its essentilly 4 small bottle with tubes on that are connected to the leak back port on the injectors (so the normal black pipes are removed) - and the amount of fuel leaking back in a given time is measured and the balance observed.

 

Also measuing the capacitance of each individual injector solenoid is another very worth while, yet quick and easy measurement. This will give a very good confidence check of the condition of the Piezo Electric solenoids.

 

I would be amazed if it will fire at only 100Bar, I would like to see from a good pump around 200Bar after 1.5 to 2 revolutions and for it to sit nicely at 297Bar at idle.

 

So to sum up - ensure adequate rail pressures, pressure regulator performance (open close ratio OCR), Injector Adaptiations, Leak Back, solenoid capactiance.

 

I would hope from that the fault would be quickly diagnosed.

 

Regards

 

James.