Guest dave2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 hi all.ive just bought a 1997 citroen synergie thats difficult to start in the morning but once its been started its pretty easy to start. could this be a glow plug issue? also ive got a fuel leak some where on the engine. could this be causing difficult starting due to air in the system? cheers all. :) Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 1997 would be XUD 1.9ltr engine. Yes - at least three glowplugs must be good to get half decent starting. They can be tested in situ but I always found it best to take them out and put them across a battery and see them glow. On the other hand, XUDs are reluctant to start if there's air in the system. Have you tried pumping up the hand primer before trying the first start of the day. The primer should feel solid before starting. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 7, 2011 Posted February 7, 2011 1997 would be XUD 1.9ltr engine. Yes - at least three glowplugs must be good to get half decent starting. They can be tested in situ but I always found it best to take them out and put them across a battery and see them glow. On the other hand, XUDs are reluctant to start if there's air in the system. Have you tried pumping up the hand primer before trying the first start of the day. The primer should feel solid before starting. hey john. thanks for the quick reply :) this is the first time ive owned a citroen let alone a people carrier so im just learning about them B) .ive been doing a little reading online and just discovered the primer pump and where it is but i have yet to try and prime it before i start it first thing.the car had a fault with the glow plugs before i bought it so now there has been a button installed inside the car to press to heat the glow plugs before starting it.a pain i know so i plan on getting it fixed properly. :) when it does start it puffs a large amount of white smoke out the back which soon clears but its annoying lol. :( as for the air in the fuel factor its losing fuel pretty bad so id say that there is air in the line. it appears to be leaking at the righthand side of the engine through a hole underneath what looks like a subframe for the engine.im just hoping that its a easy fix as it looks pretty tight in the engine bay. :) Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 there has been a button installed inside the car to press to heat the glow plugs before starting it.a pain i know so i plan on getting it fixed properly. That needs putting right and is probably the reason for your white smoke. The smoke - if it has a smell of diesel about it is atomized fuel. In low-tech diesels, which is what the XUDs are, when the glowplugs work correctly they stay on for a time even after the engine has started. Length of time is determined by the temperature. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 8, 2011 Posted February 8, 2011 That needs putting right and is probably the reason for your white smoke. The smoke - if it has a smell of diesel about it is atomized fuel. In low-tech diesels, which is what the XUDs are, when the glowplugs work correctly they stay on for a time even after the engine has started. Length of time is determined by the temperature. i tryed the prime the fuel thing this morning which i pressed the bladder 12times till i could feel pressure in the system......heated the glow plugs via the button and it started a 100% better than normal.infact i did a 265 mile round trip in the car today and it never skipped a beat. there wasnt even any white smoke either.the reason the heaterplug button was fitted by a a professional garage according to the car dealership i bought it from was that was the stop solenoid on the fuel pump had fryed the wiring for the glow plugs somehow so it was put in a a quick fix. any ideas how i can put it back to how it should be? cheers for the help once again :) Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 the stop solenoid on the fuel pump had fryed the wiring for the glow plugs By turning off the ignition, the 12volts to the solenoid is cut allowing the plunger to stop the flow of fuel. Turning the key to on also activates the glowplug timer controls. Does your extra dashboard button use the original relay? Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 9, 2011 Posted February 9, 2011 By turning off the ignition, the 12volts to the solenoid is cut allowing the plunger to stop the flow of fuel. Turning the key to on also activates the glowplug timer controls. Does your extra dashboard button use the original relay? no its has a 5 pin car relay wired in for the glow plugs and there is the black box connected up...... it has a large multi plug on it and 2 thick wires that attach to it by 2 nuts and bolts either side but they aint connected on mine.there is a small needle under the rev counter that rises when i press the glowplug button..... is this for the glowplugs? how hot they are for eg :P Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 it has a large multi plug on it and 2 thick wires that attach to it by 2 nuts and bolts either side but they aint connected on mine. Often with these glowplug controls a bad connection leads to overheating and the relay contact points burn out. Each glowplug can be drawing in the region of 10amps for each plug. This is what may be wrong with yours and an outside relay has been added. On the original timer box you would have two heavy cables from battery to timer and from timer to glowplugs. An earth for the timer circuit. A 12volt supply via the ignition key. A lead to the dashboard glowplug taletale light. Maybe a sensor from the engine for temperature. If the glowplugs are working OK as it is now, I would live with it and concentrate on your fuel/air leak. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Often with these glowplug controls a bad connection leads to overheating and the relay contact points burn out. Each glowplug can be drawing in the region of 10amps for each plug. This is what may be wrong with yours and an outside relay has been added. On the original timer box you would have two heavy cables from battery to timer and from timer to glowplugs. An earth for the timer circuit. A 12volt supply via the ignition key. A lead to the dashboard glowplug taletale light. Maybe a sensor from the engine for temperature. If the glowplugs are working OK as it is now, I would live with it and concentrate on your fuel/air leak. hey john just a quick progress report :) had the car on the ramps today to check the fuel lines/fuel tank and connectors and under the front end as i supected a chaffed fuel line either the solid line or the rubber hose....... how wrong i was lol.basicly i went over the engine and found many loose circlips for fuel lines...... a finger tight drain plug for what i believe is the fuel filter.......a perished fuel pipe on the fuel pump at the back......i rigid pipe that is held in place by a 17mm bolt which needs 2 new copper washers as its seaping from there too.rang euro car parts n they told me it was a dealership part only......as if lol. :angry: n the fuel pump is leaking somewhere at the back that i cant see but since ive tightened things up the car seams to have more power lol. might just be me though lol.i also found some kind of choke mechanisam that seams to be jammed back as i couldnt move it on the return spring but i think its been botched like that to aid the starting.....it has a thin throttle type cable attached to it that connected to a vacume sensor thing next to the expansion tank. all in all its the diesel pump thats losing all my fuel. :( Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 i also found some kind of choke mechanisam that seams to be jammed back as i couldnt move it on the return spring but i think its been botched like that to aid the starting.....it has a thin throttle type cable attached to it that connected to a vacume sensor thing next to the expansion tank. I think what you're looking at is the cold start system. That's a choke-cable-like thing running from the fuel pump to a sensor bulb close to the thermostat housing on the end of the engine. If it's working correctly the cable will pull a fuel pump lever to assist cold starting. As the engine hots up, the sensor relaxes and allows the lever to move back so that the cable has slight slack in it. The sensor is prone to failure, either in the open or closed position. It's fairly easily replaced. The copper washers on the banjo are often a leak point. If fuel leaks out, air will certainly be drawn in as the fuel falls back into the tank overnight, giving you difficult starting next day. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 I think what you're looking at is the cold start system. That's a choke-cable-like thing running from the fuel pump to a sensor bulb close to the thermostat housing on the end of the engine. If it's working correctly the cable will pull a fuel pump lever to assist cold starting. As the engine hots up, the sensor relaxes and allows the lever to move back so that the cable has slight slack in it. The sensor is prone to failure, either in the open or closed position. It's fairly easily replaced. The copper washers on the banjo are often a leak point. If fuel leaks out, air will certainly be drawn in as the fuel falls back into the tank overnight, giving you difficult starting next day. you certainly know your citroens john :) i aint had the car a week and ive learned quite alot about it.gunna ring citroen tomorrow and see if i can source 2 copper washers to seal the banjo up.i take it you can,t get anykind of sealant to solve this issue then?..... :angry: im just hoping that the pump aint totaly knacked and its just not tightened up like the rest of the bits i found as a replacement pump would cost the earth id imagine. :) how much would a glowplug moduel cost? any ideas? ive kinda got used to the prime the pump issue so i,ll leave that bit as it is atm. just need to sort this leak. :( Quote
paul.h Posted February 10, 2011 Posted February 10, 2011 Car accessory shops usually sell copper washers of different sizes, sometimes in the carded clear packs and sometimes they will have a box of various sizes to rummage through. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 Car accessory shops usually sell copper washers of different sizes, sometimes in the carded clear packs and sometimes they will have a box of various sizes to rummage through. cheers paul. i,ll try my local car shops but knowing my luck they wont have them lol.all this for 2 washers hehe. :angry: Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 11, 2011 Posted February 11, 2011 you certainly know your citroens john After two BXs, two Pug205s, a Pug306 and a Xantia over 20 years, you begin to find your way around XUD engine bays :angry: For glowplug timer controls I would look in the scappy yards. But before you change anything, find the 12v wire from the ignition switch to the box and make sure that it's working properly. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 After two BXs, two Pug205s, a Pug306 and a Xantia over 20 years, you begin to find your way around XUD engine bays :D For glowplug timer controls I would look in the scappy yards. But before you change anything, find the 12v wire from the ignition switch to the box and make sure that it's working properly. the bx is the old un,s on hydralics aint they? cools as them things lol.so i take it those cars you,ve owned all share the same engine as the synergie then? :unsure: i was gunna hunt the scrappys for a moduel then i thought ive no way of trying it.or is there?....... :unsure: thats guna be fun tracing the 12v wire lol.wiring on citroens is evil lol.all the windows on it worked.....took the door card off to sort the locks n 1 window didnt work then it fixed itself lol. :rolleyes: sure i read on ebay that the xara or xantia moduels are the same? :) Quote
Johndouglas Posted February 12, 2011 Posted February 12, 2011 the bx is the old un,s on hydralics aint they? cools as them things lol.so i take it those cars you,ve owned all share the same engine as the synergie then? :unsure: i was gunna hunt the scrappys for a moduel then i thought ive no way of trying it.or is there?....... :unsure: thats guna be fun tracing the 12v wire lol.wiring on citroens is evil lol.all the windows on it worked.....took the door card off to sort the locks n 1 window didnt work then it fixed itself lol. :rolleyes: sure i read on ebay that the xara or xantia moduels are the same? :D Yes - all my previous Citroen/Peugeot cars have had XUD engines. Some as 1.7cc; others as 1.9cc and the Xantia which was 2.1cc, but all of similar design. Even the first HDIs was based on it. It was such a successful engine that it was used by other companies like Lada, FSO, Rover, Suzuki, Fiat and Lancia. Regarding the 12volt supply wire from ignition switch to timer control. The wire will be in that multiplug you mentioned. Connect a grounded 12 bulb to it and if it's working, when the ignition switch is turned, the bulb should light. Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Posted February 13, 2011 Yes - all my previous Citroen/Peugeot cars have had XUD engines. Some as 1.7cc; others as 1.9cc and the Xantia which was 2.1cc, but all of similar design. Even the first HDIs was based on it. It was such a successful engine that it was used by other companies like Lada, FSO, Rover, Suzuki, Fiat and Lancia. Regarding the 12volt supply wire from ignition switch to timer control. The wire will be in that multiplug you mentioned. Connect a grounded 12 bulb to it and if it's working, when the ignition switch is turned, the bulb should light. cheers john. :) ive got a sealy 12v probe tester so i could use that to find the 12v moduel wire. :unsure: on a guess its not working as a sparky fitted that daft button for the glow plugs :rolleyes: think im gunna take the car to the garage to get the leak fixed as im way to bizy to sort it myself unfortunatly :D there just aint enough hours in the day for family n cars n work lol. :unsure: i,ll let you know what the garage says when i take it in for them to have a look at it. :) Quote
Guest dave2011 Posted February 18, 2011 Posted February 18, 2011 well today was the dreaded day to get the evil leak sorted........ well so i thought. it was booked in for 11am this morning so i decided to drop it off a little earlier which they did,nt mind but they,ve had the damn thing all day n all they have done to it is look behind the pump with a mirror to source the leak......... :angry: :angry: :angry: :angry: they where suposed to ring me when they had a look to give me a price n a rough time to do the job but insted they decided to leave the car outside the garage and not tell me so when i finialy did ring them to see what was going on they tell me that they arnt specialists n it would need to go to one. im f**%ing fuming.........it could of been in another garage getting sorted.however they were so kind to give me the number of the diesel pump specialist that is looking at it on monday. :( Quote
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