Climate Control - Driver Side Issues

[sifaan]

Hi all

 

The climate control on my C5 (1st gen) has developed a problem recently; the issue itself seems to be fairly common, but the suprising thing is that every incident report I've found talks of the problem on the passenger side, whereas mine is on the driver side.

(BTW this is in Sri Lanka, so still RHD like in UK)

 

The symptom of the problem is as follows: Passenger side blows fine, the airflow temperature changes according to the control.

On the driver side, the air is neither hot nor cold (probably ambient temperature) except when the control is set high, when it blows hot air (it definitely blows hot at 28; not sure at which settings it starts to blow hot).

Very rarely (after fiddling with the controls, but not sure if it is because of that), the driver side also blows cold.

The blower itself works fine (blows at different speeds according to the setting) so I presume my resistor pack is fine.

 

Of course, until I open things up I can't confirm if the problem is the same as what others have encountered - the plastic socket that connects to the motor that regulates the flap has spread out. But it seems to be quite a job to open up so I'm hoping to get few options/suggestions before I take that route.

 

I suspect that the reason the passenger side fails so often is because there is a coolant line nearby, which maybe makes the plastic more malleable or brittle.

 

Any ideas as to what I can do?

 

Thanks!

[sifaan]

Small update - today it turns out the blower is not working either; initially the "blades" on the display appear solid (there is no air flow) and after a while they turn off and stay off. Does this point to a problem in the resistor pack?

 

Should I be checking any fuses first?

[sifaan]

Checked fuse 18 under the bonnet (40A) and it's fine.

 

How do I go about figuring out if I have a dead resistor pack, or dead blower motor?

 

Edit: Pulled out the resitor pack; it seems that at some time in the past one of the connectors had melted, so it had been repaired by shunting two wires to the supply wires (the ones going to the melted connecter), and soldering those wires to something (probably the pins of the connector) by cutting a hole in the plastic of the resistor pack.

There was a loose connection / dry joint on the soldering; wasn't ready with any soldering stuff so just left it as it is - will pull it out again and solder it if it dies on me again.

 

So, back to my original question - any ideas why the driver side air flow is not blowing cool?

 

And even if I should check a motor, which one is it? citroen's service diagram shows 3, one on either side of the unit (which I presumed were driver/passenger) and one a bit forward/up, which I guess is for the windscreen. I would prefer not having to dismantle both sides of the dash!

 

Thanks!

[sifaan]

Hi

 

Can someone help me out please - it's getting lonely talking to myself here :)

 

In the meantime I managed to get access to Citroen service documentation, and they also list this as an issue for the LEFT HAND side;

 

Permanent warm air coming from the LH side of the air conditioning

1. ORIGIN

Possible cause.

The toothing driving the air distribution flap on the LH side of the air conditioning (1) is damaged.

The distribution flap is no longer being driven by the control reduction motor.

 

2. AFTER-SALES REPAIR

Replace the reduction motor (2) for driving the LH air distribution flap.

Fit a reduction motor with longer toothing that will drive the flap despite the partial damage of the flap´s toothing.

Obtain, from the Replacement Parts Department,A reduction motor, Part No. 6447 TK.

 

N.B. : Fitting the reduction motor with longer toothing necessitates the partial removal of the dashboard

Remove the original reduction motor.

Clean the flap drive housing.

Fit the new reduction motor.

 

furthermore, I was wondering if the outside sensor can have something to do with the A/C or is it only for information, and it turns out it does have a bearing on the AC function, but unlikely to be the situation for me as the problem should be symmetric for driver/passenger if that was the cause. Anyway, reproducing that info as well:

 

Incorrect functioning of the heating or air conditioning.The value given by the outside temperature sensor located in the RH rear view mirror is incorrect

 

1. ORIGIN

Deterioration of the sensitiveness of the electronic sensor caused by ingress of water.

 

2. AFTER-SALES REPAIR

Replace the outside temperature sensor.

Obtain, from the Replacement Parts Department :

 

One sensor, Part No. 6445 F9

Two soldered sleeves, Part No. 9488 01 (packs of 50)

 

2.1. Remove the glass from the mirror

Release the pin (1) using a thin screwdriver.

2.2. Remove the rear view mirror shell

The shell is held in place by the lugs (a, b, c, d, e).The lug (e) is accessed via the exterior of the rear view mirror when it is folded back.

2.3. Remove the sensor

Detach the sensor (3) and cut the electrical harness in the area indicated.

2.4. Fit the new sensor

Join the 2 wires of the sensor to the harness you have cut, using the soldered sleeves (no polarity).

2.5. Proceed in reverse order to refit the rear view mirror

 

Thank you

 

PS I haven't posted the repair diagrams for the above (for the first, it's just a diagram of the evaporator housing showing which motor is faulty) but can do so if it will be of use to someone

[GreenBlood]

You're doing a great job talking to yourself :D

 

I think you have pretty well diagnosed your problem, as I understnd it, there are two flap motors, the upper motor controls the passenger side (RHD) and the lower controls the driver side. You seem to have a failure of the lower which is unusual.

 

Access is via the glovebox, I've not done this job myself, apparently it's a bit of an exercise, you will break clips and lose some skin - but several on here have had success. It may be worth checking with Citroen, I have heard an inexpesive kit to repair the drive cog on the motor/flap control (rather than replace the whole unit).

 

Keep us posted, pics would be appreciated ;)

 

Cheers

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Hi

 

Can someone help me out please - it's getting lonely talking to myself here :)

 

In the meantime I managed to get access to Citroen service documentation, and they also list this as an issue for the LEFT HAND side;

 

 

 

furthermore, I was wondering if the outside sensor can have something to do with the A/C or is it only for information, and it turns out it does have a bearing on the AC function, but unlikely to be the situation for me as the problem should be symmetric for driver/passenger if that was the cause. Anyway, reproducing that info as well:

 

 

 

Thank you

 

PS I haven't posted the repair diagrams for the above (for the first, it's just a diagram of the evaporator housing showing which motor is faulty) but can do so if it will be of use to someone

[Randombloke]

I would sort out the resistor pack first. Mine has just died, so it gets replaced tomorrow.

[sifaan]

You're doing a great job talking to yourself :D

lol

 

I think you have pretty well diagnosed your problem, as I understnd it, there are two flap motors, the upper motor controls the passenger side (RHD) and the lower controls the driver side. You seem to have a failure of the lower which is unusual.

 

Access is via the glovebox, I've not done this job myself, apparently it's a bit of an exercise, you will break clips and lose some skin - but several on here have had success.

according to parts diagrams, there are 3 (part #2) - 2 on the passenger side, one on the driver side:

http://sifaan.almostunreal.org/evaphousing.png

 

from the citroen service documentation (referred to in my earlier post) the passenger side motor is on the passenger side, the lower one (the one closer to the coolant line):

http://sifaan.almostunreal.org/evaphousing.gif

 

so which is the driver side? the one opposite (access via driver side) or the other on the left? it would make "sense" that the symmetrical pair are passenger-driver and the other is for the windscreen.

 

It may be worth checking with Citroen, I have heard an inexpesive kit to repair the drive cog on the motor/flap control (rather than replace the whole unit).

yes, that's the motor 6447TK that has the longer shaft or something

 

I would sort out the resistor pack first. Mine has just died, so it gets replaced tomorrow.

sorry if I wasn't clear before; the melted connector is the one on the harness, the connector on the resistor pack itself seems fine; so if I were to address that it would be a case of replacing the harness (shouldn't be too hard to find a used harness but shudder to think of the amount of work entailed - the whole dashboard would come off!?)

[GreenBlood]

 

so which is the driver side? the one opposite (access via driver side) or the other on the left? it would make "sense" that the symmetrical pair are passenger-driver and the other is for the windscreen.

 

 

We may be talking at cross purposes here, is your car LHD or like the UK and Australian cars RHD? If RHD drive yes, I would agree, but we have to remember this is a Citroen we can't apply common sense :D

 

I'm going to ask for assistance on the Aussie French car forum www.aussiefrogs.com we have a few members that are very knowledgeable and should be able to point you to which motor is the culprit ;)

 

Cheers

Chris

[sifaan]

We may be talking at cross purposes here, is your car LHD or like the UK and Australian cars RHD?

RHD - legacy of being a british colony :)

 

If RHD drive yes, I would agree, but we have to remember this is a Citroen we can't apply common sense :D

Indeed!

 

I'm going to ask for assistance on the Aussie French car forum www.aussiefrogs.com we have a few members that are very knowledgeable and should be able to point you to which motor is the culprit ;)

Thank you :)

[GreenBlood]

RHD - legacy of being a british colony :)

 

 

Indeed!

 

 

Thank you :)

 

Not sure if images will show, but we'll give this a shot - if not have a look here http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=958856#post958856

 

This is the left hand side (access via the glovebox)

The reduction motor for distribution flaps = 2

The reduction motor for mixing flaps = 3

 

IMAGE 1 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16508&stc=1&d=1307098266

(what are the correct image tags on this board? I used .. not happy }

 

This is the right hand side (access remove the cover under the dash in the RH foot well and the cover that's covering where the steering column goes through and look behind the dash for the motor)

The reduction motor for distribution flaps = 4

The reduction motor for mixing flaps = 6

 

IMAGE 2 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16509&stc=1&d=1307098266

 

Cheers

Chris

[sifaan]

Not sure if images will show, but we'll give this a shot - if not have a look here http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/showthread.php?p=958856#post958856

 

IMAGE 1 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16508&stc=1&d=1307098266

 

IMAGE 2 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16509&stc=1&d=1307098266

 

 

sorry chris, the pics don't show - not on the aussiefrogs thread, not on the image links (following them gives a vBulletin message "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator").

 

BTW the tags for images on this site are

[img= ]

[GreenBlood]

sorry chris, the pics don't show - not on the aussiefrogs thread, not on the image links (following them gives a vBulletin message "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator").

 

BTW the tags for images on this site are

[img= ]

 

Try aussiefrogs again, it should be fixed there, the image tags don't seem to allow me to link to attachments on AF, these links should take you to the images.

 

IMAGE 1 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16511&stc=1&d=1307104147

 

IMAGE 2 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16512&stc=1&d=1307104147

 

Cheers

Chris

[sifaan]

Try aussiefrogs again, it should be fixed there, the image tags don't seem to allow me to link to attachments on AF, these links should take you to the images.

 

IMAGE 1 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16511&stc=1&d=1307104147

 

IMAGE 2 http://www.aussiefrogs.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16512&stc=1&d=1307104147

 

Cheers

Chris

the images work, but now I'm a bit confused - are there 4 motors (2 for each side)? this would make more sense than 3 (3rd for the windscreen) because (now that I think of it) there can't be a mixer for the windscreen - the front defroster sets both sides' temp to 16 when it operates.

But how come the citroen parts diagram only shows/lists 3??

 

also, just wondering if some temperature sensor/s could be involved here? I'm guessing there are some kind of temp sensor for each side for feedback to the climate control? cos while the majority of the time it's working on passenger and not on driver, there are occassions where it doesn't work on either side (just blowing; however compressor is engaged - cos switching to eco shows a drop in rpm), as well as occassions where it works on both sides.

 

Thanks

[GreenBlood]

the images work, but now I'm a bit confused - are there 4 motors (2 for each side)? this would make more sense than 3 (3rd for the windscreen) because (now that I think of it) there can't be a mixer for the windscreen - the front defroster sets both sides' temp to 16 when it operates.

But how come the citroen parts diagram only shows/lists 3??

 

also, just wondering if some temperature sensor/s could be involved here? I'm guessing there are some kind of temp sensor for each side for feedback to the climate control? cos while the majority of the time it's working on passenger and not on driver, there are occassions where it doesn't work on either side (just blowing; however compressor is engaged - cos switching to eco shows a drop in rpm), as well as occassions where it works on both sides.

 

Thanks

 

My guess would be that the mixing flap motors 3 and 6 are failing on both sides with passenger side working some of the time? These would control the ratio of hot/ cold air. I would think the distribution flaps control air to footwell/ dash/ windscreen? I doubt you have a problem with temp sensors.

 

From what I have gleaned from an email via the aussiefrog site, the drivers side should be easier to check??

 

Cheers

Chris

[sifaan]

I doubt you have a problem with temp sensors.

any chance of validating this (e.g. can lexia give a live reading from these sensors) before I take my dashboard apart?

 

thanks!

[GreenBlood]

any chance of validating this (e.g. can lexia give a live reading from these sensors) before I take my dashboard apart?

 

thanks!

 

This is a reply on the aussiefrogs site, the member couldn't post here??

 

Hi,,

I did try to reply on the UK site but !!//??

 

I do have an air control/ conditioning unit that is out of the car, from a wreck. I can look at some things if you wish. Not interested in selling things so go to David if you wish to do that. It is a very large size!! You would have to dismantle a lot of the dash etc to get it out I would think

 

It is not so easy to see how the air travels through it either, from the outside. The plastic can be moulded to any shape and they seem to have chosen to do something complicated

 

The LHS upper motor seem to be the upper temp control which has a triple flap which rotates in line with the shaft. I think the center flap is cold and the outer flaps on each side are hot. As the shaft turns the center closes and the others open etc. There is a rod connected inside which also operates another internal flap for the cold which is hard to see.

 

The LHS lower motor controls the air to the feet that side. It is the one which fails and this one has a cracked plastic boss. I have repaired this in my own cars unit by the glue method. Works OK.

 

The RHS lower motor does the air to the feet on the drivers side in a similar manner to the other. However it is not close to the heater pipes so it survives OK.

 

There is another different type of motor higher up on the RHS which controls the outside/inside air. It has a plastic gear segment on it which meshes with the segments on the two flap shafts.

 

There are at least three thermistors which plug into various places. These, I guess are providing feedback to the computer.

 

I would do a reset first if I were you pull the battery lead off for a minute ( with everything turned off ), See if that fixes anything. I believe the computer sometimes get its signals mixed and the software cannot sort it out. Note there is some resetting recommended for the windows and the throttle position after this also.

Cheers Jaahn

 

Maybe of some help?

 

Cheers

Chris

[paul.h]

The motor (reduction gear) at the lower driver's side (RHD) controls the temperature at the driver's side and it can be replaced without removing the fascia but it is awkward since you can not see it and there are things in the way (just done mine). Did not solve my problem though, the driver's side temperature does not go down to the air con temp, just the outside air, unlike the passenger side.

 

To remove it, remove the plastic trim at the side of the clutch pedal, the trim (cloth) above the pedals, raise the steering wheel to max height, remove the square plastic trim below the steering column then cover the sharp steel edges now exposed (or suffer cuts). There are three 6mm headed self tapping screws holding the motor in place, 2 can be reached with a short open ended spanner and the top one with a 6mm socket. A mirror and torch are needed to see them. Leave unplugging the wiring connector until last and refit it before the screws (or risk bending the pins on the motor, my experience which meant removing/refitting it all again). Also with the motor removed you can check the flap moves freely (mine did except when the engine was running, why ?) and also if the motor turns when the temp control is adjusted with the engine running. Cover the gap above the exposed carpet edge so the screws do not end up under it when they are dropped (a magnet is useful to retrieve them).

 

The other 3 motors, I think, on the driver's side high up controls the air from the outside or recirculation (this has a different part no. to the other 3), on the passenger side low down is probably the temperature control for the passenger side, on the passenger side high up is probably the flap to direct the air to the various outlets.

[paul.h]

I have done some more checks today and suspect my problem is insufficient refrigerant so it may need regassing. According to the Citroen mechanics manual, with an outside temp of about 15 to 20°C, the air coming out of the central vents with fan on full and engine at 2500 rpm, should be about 7°C - outside was about 18°C and I measured 13°C on the passenger side and 16°C at the driver side so suspect a lack of gas although I did not have the engine at 2500 rpm. The difference in the 2 sides may be related to where the cold gas/liquid enters the evaporator matrix. Touching the matrix with the cabin pollen filter removed it did not feel too cold.

[sifaan]

I have done some more checks today and suspect my problem is insufficient refrigerant so it may need regassing. According to the Citroen mechanics manual, with an outside temp of about 15 to 20°C, the air coming out of the central vents with fan on full and engine at 2500 rpm, should be about 7°C - outside was about 18°C and I measured 13°C on the passenger side and 16°C at the driver side so suspect a lack of gas although I did not have the engine at 2500 rpm. The difference in the 2 sides may be related to where the cold gas/liquid enters the evaporator matrix. Touching the matrix with the cabin pollen filter removed it did not feel too cold.

I was told pretty much the same - that cool air only on one side can be a result of insufficient pressure - i.e. it doesn't have enough "cooling power" to run across the whole evaporator matrix; on subsequent checking, it turned out my gas pressure is OK, but compressor is having problems maintaining the pressure: on switch on, pressure rises to about 250 psi, then drops down to about 170 psi. seems like the problem has been worsening progressively

 

so first step is to replace the compressor (hopefully I will have the part in early next week) and see if that fixes it; or if there is also still an issue with flap motors.

[paul.h]

'but compressor is having problems maintaining the pressure: on switch on, pressure rises to about 250 psi (17 bar), then drops down to about 170 psi (12 bar).'

 

This may be due to insufficient gas rather than a compressor problem since the compressor raises the gas pressure, it then goes to the condenser at the front and turns to liquid (with a far lower volume) at the same pressure (by cooling) but I would think only if there is enough gas behind it to be compressed. The Citroen mechanics manual gives the high pressure as 17 to 20 bar (outside temp 15 to 20+ °C) so I suspect your compressor is working ok. The compressor is likely to be a fixed volume displacement so if there is not enough gas volume at 17 bar then if the pressure falls the gas will expand to give the compressor volume.

 

End of next week my car is going to the dealer for an MOT and to recharge the refrigerant (if that is what they think is the problem) and I will report back then.

[sifaan]

'but compressor is having problems maintaining the pressure: on switch on, pressure rises to about 250 psi (17 bar), then drops down to about 170 psi (12 bar).'

 

This may be due to insufficient gas rather than a compressor problem since the compressor raises the gas pressure, it then goes to the condenser at the front and turns to liquid (with a far lower volume) at the same pressure (by cooling) but I would think only if there is enough gas behind it to be compressed. The Citroen mechanics manual gives the high pressure as 17 to 20 bar (outside temp 15 to 20+ °C) so I suspect your compressor is working ok. The compressor is likely to be a fixed volume displacement so if there is not enough gas volume at 17 bar then if the pressure falls the gas will expand to give the compressor volume.

 

well, two separate places looked at it (one the former citroen agents, the other an independent but do a lot of AC work) and pointed fingers at the compressor... I can't recall exact words but I think what they said was as it does go upto 250psi then it can't be a gas issue (I guess if the gas is low the high side pressure will be a consistently low amount?)

 

and the compressor is a variable displacement type (Sanden SD7V16 1242)

[paul.h]

http://www.compressortech.co.uk/images/cutaways/SD7V16.jpg

 

Found this site which shows a cutaway of the compressor. If the link does not work, just paste above into a google search and it will be found.

[paul.h]

I have now had the air con regassed and the driver and passenger sides now both feel the same cold temperature. I have not checked the temperatures yet but they are a lot lower than before. It was not that expensive either, my dealer does a regas inc oil and dye for just under £50 or the same with a new pollen filter and deodorising for £89.99, which is not that bad considering the charcoal pollen filter is over £30 (even at places such as Eurocarparts). Interestingly, the deodoriser used smells just like the anti bacterial surface cleanser (non bleach type) by Dettol that I have used previously.

 

No MOT failures either, though when cleaning the rear brakes/greasing the caliper suspension arm joint a few days ago I noticed a rear bump stop was hanging off since it had perished. I temporarily stuck it back with sealant whilst a new one is on order (about £11) but it managed the MOT.

[sifaan]

I have now had the air con regassed and the driver and passenger sides now both feel the same cold temperature. I have not checked the temperatures yet but they are a lot lower than before. It was not that expensive either, my dealer does a regas inc oil and dye for just under £50 or the same with a new pollen filter and deodorising for £89.99, which is not that bad considering the charcoal pollen filter is over £30 (even at places such as Eurocarparts). Interestingly, the deodoriser used smells just like the anti bacterial surface cleanser (non bleach type) by Dettol that I have used previously.

 

No MOT failures either, though when cleaning the rear brakes/greasing the caliper suspension arm joint a few days ago I noticed a rear bump stop was hanging off since it had perished. I temporarily stuck it back with sealant whilst a new one is on order (about £11) but it managed the MOT.

I don't know actually if there was a problem with the old compressor or not, since they discovered there's a gas leak (but couldn't locate where) when replacing the compressor - severe loss of trust in them for asking me to replace the compressor without confirming for loss of gas first!

 

anyway, took it to another mech (more recommended by some friends who have euro cars) where, after some searching, found a leak in the seal on the low pressure side of the compressor (where the tube fixes to it) and the seal was replaced (couldn't immediately locate the double lip type seal that PSA uses, but stacked two seals and seems to be holding). anyway also included the dye in case there are other leaks we haven't found yet (this was after separately pressuring the evaporator, condensor and compressor).

 

regassed and cooled on both sides. however - I think the contacts for the sensor on the refrigerant line at the condensor is messed up, because driving home after regassing the ac refused to cut it; drove back and checked - gas pressure still ok; I think the problem may have been when the sensor was disconnected to remove the condensor to check for leaks, so hopefully a shot of contact cleaner will do the trick.

[DaveHerns]

I had mine regassed twice by Kwik Fit and it lasted a week .Got a mobile expert out who put in some anti-leak additive which " rejuvenates the seals " and he told me to run it with aircon on for 30 mins a day for first week or so to enable the additive to take effect

Touch wood, so far , so good