C5 Knocking When Cold + Crankshaft Pulley

[Howiec]

Hi all, I have a C5 Tourer 58 plate HDI 138. When its started it is very noisy until the oil has got up to temp,  to me it sounds like one of the hydraulic cam lifters is not getting enough oil, but only guessing. Once warm it sounds fine but I am worried it may be causing long term damage if not fixed.

Could it just need a good engine oil flush, to clean the oil ways or could the lifters be worn?  The oil has been changed but the sump nut was stuck in, so it had to be sucked out, I have no idea how old the oil was before it was changed 3k ago (80k on the clock). Service records say 76k but I doubt it.  I am quite handy under the bonnet, so not scared to tackle the job if required. Any help would be much appreciated, Thanks

 

Howard

[paul.h]

You may be right with the hydraulic tappet but wait until there are some more replies.

For a workshop manual, there is a French RTA one available from Amazon  http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rta-B737-Citro%C3%ABn-Depuis-2008/dp/2726873758/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1381693765&sr=8-2-fkmr1&keywords=RTA+citroen+c5+workshop+manual

 

if you are ok with a bit of French. There is also the Citroen one on dvds from such as ebay for £4 and this is worth buying.

 

Obviously you need to sort the sump plug, if not, just sucking the old oil out may lead to a build up of muck in the bottom of the sump. The sump plug torque setting is 35 Nm (from the RTA manual) so maybe that is why it may seem tight.

 

I have deleted the same post from the general discussion section so that any replies are in one place.

[Howiec]

Thanks for the information Paul, the sump plug faces have completely stripped,  so its a garage job for that.  It's the next task on the list with an engine flush.

 

Thanks for deleting the other post, I couldn't work out how to do it. Cheers Howard.

[paul.h]

Have you checked if the sump plug is undone using an 8mm square key rather than a socket such as this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/8mm-Square-Oil-Sump-Plug-Key-Tool-Renault-Citroen-Peug-/260668761460

The square hole in the plug can get filled with dirt and can be easily missed.

[Johndouglas]

 the sump plug is undone using an 8mm square key

Not saying your C5 will be the same, but my sump plug is removed with an 8mm hex.   Likewise the Xsara's.

 

Also using a new crushable washer each time it's replaced, it gives a secure joint which is easily removed at the next change.

[Howiec]

Yes your right it is an 8mm hexi socket but it has completely sheared the faces on the inside. When I've compared it with the new one, its looks like the old one isn't as deep and therefore not allowing the socket to seat in the nut. It may be an imperfection in the old nut.

 

I'am going to ask the garage to spot weld the socket into the nut and let them try to release it with the right tools.

 

Once again thanks for your help.

[coastline taxis]

have you got the right oil grade in as this will give you a bit of a knock till it thins out

[Howiec]

Yes I think so, I checked in the manual before buying it and then asked Halfords to recommend the correct type, which matched what the book said.

[paul.h]

The most recent maintenance book we have is dated 1/2011 and for the hdi FAP engines it recommends synthetic 5w-30 Total INEO ECS which is a low SAP oil for the FAP.

[coastline taxis]

does the car run ok when the knock is happening. As it could be a diesel knock on one of the injectors. a simple leak of test will show this

[johnny 5]

I have a 2003 C5 estate 2.2 hdi, 153000 miles covered. around 2000 miles ago it developed a 'tapping' / 'knocking' noise. i thought it might be hydraulic valve lifters so not knowing much about this engine I put some valve lifter 'cleaner fluid' in the engine. No change !! Since I have done an oil and filter change using the correct fully synthetic oil. No change !!! Its now getting worse but it starts, runs and goes well, no performance drop. Any ideas anyone.  :rolleyes:

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Does the noise seem to come from the top of the engine and does it increase with engine speed ? Have you removed the engine covers and listened to the noise to see where it may be coming from ? It could possibly be a worn camshaft or hydraulic lifter. There is also a chain driving the inlet cam shaft from the exhaust one, perhaps this is worn or the guide runner. To check these would require the cam cover to be removed and possibly the inlet manifold but the chain is below the oil filler cap so you might be able to see it by removing the cap, but I am not sure. However, see if there are any more ideas suggested.

[johnny 5]

It does increase with engine speed and sounds like loose tappets but when the engine covers are removed it's sounds like it's from lower down the engine. I've removed the oil filler cap and you can't hear the noise from there. I am quite good with cars but it's got me puzzled. however I know nothing much about this engine. Thanks For the welcome

[paul.h]

Sources of info on this engine include the Citroen parts diagrams on the service.citroen site (you can register as another professional, member of the Citroen Owners Club - parts diagrams are a free service but you can also pay for timed access to other documents/procedures), the Citroen manuals which can be bought from such as ebay on 3 dvds, a French RTA manual on the C5 available from such as Amazon (it is in French but has good diagrams and photos) http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rta-654-1-Citro%C3%ABn-C5-Diesel/dp/2726865410/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384183575&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=RTA+C5+manual , I think Haynes do a Peugeot manual for the 406 ? with this engine but there may be differences - some libraries have Haynes manuals.

[johnny 5]

Thanks for the info, I may pursue a manual covering this engine as I'm the type who does like to know and understand his car. I have the Haynes manual but of course it doesn't cover this 2.2. I have heard some people steer clear of it !!! Oh dear. I have today booked it in with a Citroen specialist so I'll let the forum know what is found in due course. Thanks again for your knowledge.

[johnny 5]

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=20131112_135037.mp4&sm=12

 

this is a short video of the noise I've had on my C5, see above posts.

 

thankfully it was NOT an internal problem but a knackered crankshaft pulley. It was one of these anti vibration types which had separated slowly to the point heard in the video. It had started out as a tapping noise, like a slack tappet. My guy Sean fitted a solid one and new auxiliary drive belt and it now sounds lovely again. 

Just for info, if its allowed, cost £208.80 inc work done by FDS of Telford. 

Thank you for all your help on this site, well worth being a member  :D

[paul.h]

Thankyou for getting back to us and for posting the video. I have read before of the pulley failure but until now had never heard the noise of one - no wonder you were worried but at least it was not too expensive compared to other possibilities. I will add this to the list of common problems on the technical subsection.

 

Something for you to keep an eye on, on the 2.2 hdi 136 bhp engine. At the gearbox end of the cylinder head is a ball and socket joint from a part called a diaphragm which controls the swirl flaps. The plastic socket often fails. A new part is only about £20 and you can replace the complete diaphragm part or just detach the plastic socket and change that. There are posts on it in the forum.

[johnny 5]

once again thanks for the help and info, its always good to know common faults and how to overcome them.My guy said he always fits the 'solid' type replacement, more expensive but end of problems.

[Howiec]

Hi. Just an update on the knocking when cold problem. I've now removed and replaced the sump nut and flushed the engine. I used correct oil as suggested in the earlier post ( thanks for the info) but the problem still persists. I don't think it's an injector knock as the car runs fine cold or warm,but the knocking does appear to be getting worse when cold. Just wondering if anyone has tackled replacing the lifters before and is it a massive job. I'm not frightened to have a go but is it something I should leave for a garage. I will try to upload a video of the problem when cold and when it's warm to compare the two sounds.

[coastline taxis]

Just a daft one take your fan belt of and fire the car up and see if your knocking goes. weve just found this fault on a vivaro and it was the power steering pump banging till it got warmed up

[Howiec]

Cheers, I will give it a try.  This is the same car that the power steering fluid leaked over night, onto my drive but it never leaked again and I couldn't find exactly where it came from. I did manage to tighten the hexi head bolt where the high/low pressure pipes go into the rack about 1/8 of a turn but I don't think it was enough to cause such a big leak. Thanks Howard 

[Howiec]

here should be the links for two videos of knocking noise when cold and when the engine is up to temp.

http://youtu.be/kHn_uudG_-Q

 

http://youtu.be/Wb65zPLoyw0

 

[Howiec]

If anyone can tell me if this sound is normal when the engine is cold, or does any ones sound the same. Thanks

[coastline taxis]

Take fan belt of and start the engine and see if the knocking goes away

[Howiec]

Removed belt and it sounds the same. I might just be worrying over nothing but just want to be sure before it gets costly. Thanks