Got Me Flummoxed!

[bobtuck]

Hi guys,

 

(2002 2.2 HDi saloon)

 

A few weeks ago after replacing the nearside headlight and sidelight bulbs, which for me necessitate's lowering the front bumper and taking out the entire headlight unit, I had complete electrical failure five minutes after driving the car. Got the message "The battery is not being recharged" or words to that effect and the car just died on me and refused to start...dead as a doornail on turnover except for a chorus of 'bings' and flashing dash lights :(

 

After having the car recovered (thank God I chose that option in my insurance!) I fitted a new heavy duty battery (Platinum Prestige) and new alternator (I'd found a small fuel drip from the filter feed directly above the old alternator a few weeks earlier so decided better safe than sorry).

 

I checked the battery with a multimeter after initially fitting both it and the new alternator. It was 12.42 volts standing and 14.3 volts with engine ticking over.

 

Now the dial indicating the battery condition is behaving crazy!

 

When I start the car from cold the needle on the dial goes slowly (takes about ten seconds) to just past centre....then drops quickly after about 30 seconds back down to zero.

 

It'll repeatedly wander up to halfway (while driving) and drop back to zero again a few times until I've driven for around ten to fifteen minutes....then it stabilises at just over half way on the dial.

 

Surely if this dial is indicating battery 'condition' it cannot fluctuate so quickly? Or is the dial indicating the level of 'charge' the battery's receiving from the alternator??

 

I'm sure it didn't behave like this before my 'troubles' started....any advice, wisdom or guidance would be gratefully received.

 

Many thanks

 

Bob

 

P.S. If we get a break from this monsoon here in the North East tomorrow I'm gonna get the wife to tell me when that dial indicates a drop....and see if it's confirmed with the multimeter on the battery!

Edited October 14, 2013 by bobtuck

[paul.h]

The voltmeter on our car moves to near halfway (or less if the battery is low) when the ignition key is turned so the dash lights up and then once the engine is running it moves a bit higher and stays there until switched off again. So it must be indicating battery voltage.

 

If you have a plug for the cigarette lighter socket, you could alter it to connect your voltmeter and then watch the actual voltage as the car is used. This would then suggest whether it is a battery or charging problem or maybe a problem with the gauge. It may be possible the needle on the gauge could be loose - I recently had this on the speedo and the needle dropped down - there is a pinned note on speedo repairs in the Problems and Fixes section which may help. If any wiring/earth points were disturbed when you did the bumper/light removal, then if not already done you could check these again and possibly the alternator connection (may be it has diesel in it).

[bobtuck]

Thanks Paul. I'm sure that's how my voltmeter used to behave before. What it's doing now doesn't make sense to me (large/wild fluctuations in relatively small time periods).

 

Not sure I understand your comments about the cigarette socket plug....do you mean a charger that plugs in there? (attaching voltmeter to other end of plug that normally goes into the device to be charged??)

 

Checked battery earth point (even repeated the process I did to change the bulbs to check for any disturbed wiring) and the alternator wiring was dry and the two connections (on the new one) given a smear of vaseline.

 

Starting to worry me.....and giving that dial too much attention instead of the road ahead!

[paul.h]

For the socket plug I meant the type of plug that goes in to the cigarette lighter socket like this on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/321072358876?lpid=83&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=83

 

I have a couple of these plugs cut off things before throwing them away and can wire something up to them to provide a 12 volt supply - or connect it to a voltmeter. You can also get voltmeters that plug in to the socket for next to nothing http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Display-Cigarette-Lighter-Electric-Voltage-Meter-Auto-Car-Battery-/350699461813?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D321085540569%26ps%3D54

[bobtuck]

Cheers Paul....get ya now :)

[bobtuck]

Okay can confirm.....the voltmeter in-car is not fubared.

 

Battery at rest (before car start, left overnight) reads 12.2v (a bit too low methinks!).

 

On start up it slowly climbs to 14.24v (takes roughly a couple of minutes)....it does drop back when anything electrical is switched on (demist blower etc.) but corresponds exactly to the dial in the car

i.e. dial shows a drop....multimeter also shows a drop down to 13.6v etc.

 

Once car is driven for 5-10 minutes & warmed up the dial sticks at just above mid-way. Turn off for a few minutes then upon restart we begin the process all over again :(

 

Gonna take it into Halfrauds for that 5 point check early next week before calling at Nationa Tyres where I bought the battery....hopefully I'll have some concrete arguing points cos, as usual, they seemed

indifferent to my suggestion that 12.2v at rest was too low.

[paul.h]

As well as the battery being suspect, the new alternator may also be. Is the new alternator a new/reconditioned/used one and is it the correct one for the car (should be 150 amp - ref RTA workshop manual) ?

 

The battery in our C5 often drops down to low 12 volts and much below will not start since the car is often not used for 3 to 4 weeks. But on starting, the voltage gauge goes to its usual place or slightly below and creeps up but does not drop back down. It is worthwhile checking the engine earth cable, although if it was bad the car would not turn over too well, and possibly the earthing of the alternator. Also check the alternator drive belt is not loose/slipping.

[bobtuck]

Many thanks for the reply Paul. Alternator is new and correct type http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/140983041702?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

 

Was really careful/wary fitting it. Belt in good condition, lined up nicely and do not think it's slipping (nice and firm tension when belt placed back over pulley of new alternator).

 

Engine earth cable clean and tight (turns over well and starts within 2 seconds of cranking).

 

Eying this new battery suspiciously now <_<

[bobtuck]

Thought I'd follow this up guys (bit annoying when issues aren't)....

 

Had the car tested today. Following were the results....

 

"YUASA" V.1 -

 

BATTERY - Volts 12.93v   Measured - 705 SAE (A)   Rating - 720 SAE (A)   Battery Type - Regular Flooded.    "GOOD BATTERY"

 

STARTER TEST - Cranking - 12.00v   Time - 4.00S  

 

CHARGING TEST - No Load - 14.26v   Loaded - 14.17v   "NO PROBLEMS"

 

So....everything tested out okay.

 

Advice given - suspect the in-car voltage indicator.

 

Thanks for the advice :)

[coastline taxis]

let the car run for a couple of mins and put your hand on the back of the alternator and see if its hot. This sounds like a duff or wrong alternator

[bobtuck]

Thanks Coastline.....alternator is as linked two posts above yours.

[bobtuck]

let the car run for a couple of mins and put your hand on the back of the alternator and see if its hot. This sounds like a duff or wrong alternator

Checked m8.....not hot.

[coastline taxis]

Had a look at that link and it would appear that they are saying one size fits all. Anyhow is the car charging and starting ok and the only real problem is the amp gauge or have i got it wrong

[bobtuck]

Hi Coast, thanks for the reply m8

 

Car is starting ok....charging is weird though according to the gauge, symptoms as described (needle climbs to halfway after 30 seconds of starting, then always drops back to zero almost immediately followed by a climb back to halfway after warmed up (about ten minutes)

 

Halfords check didn't show any problems (car was well warmed up by then)...You thinking they got it wrong and one size donesn't fit all????????

 

Appreciate any advice

[coastline taxis]

One size definatly dosnt fit all. Ask paul to see if the citroen sevice thing he has will tell you what model it needs. if you can speak french you can register on it yourself and have a look

[bobtuck]

One size definatly dosnt fit all. Ask paul to see if the citroen sevice thing he has will tell you what model it needs. if you can speak french you can register on it yourself and have a look

Any chance Paul? (could you ascertain, from the link to what I was sold above, if it is indeed correct?) I would be most grateful :)

 

Many thanks for the help and advice guys!

 

Bob

[paul.h]

You need to register yourself and then you can use your vin to get the correct alternator. Without the vin there are several ones. The 2.2 hdi C5 are all 150 amp but other models use as low as 80 amp. The 2.0 hdi can be 90 or 120 amp, a 1.9 Berlingo is only 70 amp so I do not know from the ebay listing what alternator is being provided - I would contact the supplier and ask for more information or look on the alternator for any labels.

 

The site is service.citroen, then register as another professional, member of the Citroen Owners Club - this is allowed as a member of a car club. You do not have to do it in French since you can select your own language. http://service.citroen.com/do/changerParametres The parts diagrams are a free service, there are others that you can pay for but I have never bothered since you can get the Citroen manuals/parts diagrams/wiring diagrams on 3 dvds from such as ebay for £4.

[bobtuck]

You're a star....many thanks m8....off to register now....

[bobtuck]

No labels on alternator so asked the question to the supplier (through Ebay messaging) 'what amperage is this alternator rated at?'. Just been emailed by supplier and asked to 'ring their technical staff to resolve any issues' ;)

 

Replied asking that they reply through Ebay in order to avoid any confusion. We'll see.

[bobtuck]

OK. Got a reply from that supplier. They confirm it is a 110 amp model........according to Paul here and confirmed (if it needed to be!) by the 'Citroen Service' site ALL 2.2 C5's are 150 amp.

 

That explains the weird 'jumping around' of the volt meter in the car.

 

I'm gonna get back to them and complain.....only complication is, I originally fitted this alternator (not too difficult) but following an altercation with a jammed SDS drill and the edge of a worktop I now have a broken

finger so it's impossible for me to do it!

 

Just been quoted £92.00 from a local indy for fitting. Assuming they accept responsibility and replace it does anyone think I have a reasonable case for pursuing them for this fitting cost?

 

Cheers guys

 

Bob

[paul.h]

I would try to get them to offer to pay the fitting costs and see what they say and mention the broken finger. Will they supply the correct alternator or will that come from elsewhere ?

 

If you have one, now sounds like a good time for your Mrs (or children) to learn about car maintenance. How long will the finger need to heal, if it is going to take a long time for the company to reimburse you so you can buy the correct alternator to swap over then the extra cost may not apply. Had the original alternator failed or was it just the battery ?

[bobtuck]

'lo m8, thanks for the reply.

 

I know I'm biased but they do clearly state on their (still current) listing that it's suitable for 2.2 when it definitely isn't (I also mentioned they may want to review that listing as it contains other inaccuracies). I don't think I'm being unreasonable not wanting to bear the cost of a refit when I bought it in good faith?

 

They have just replied in an email with 'If you require a 150amp unit we do also do this'. Err, yes I do require a 150 amp unit <_<  that's what I thought I was getting in the first place! (no mention of refitting cost)

 

I very much doubt the missus could do it as it did require some heaving and cussing to get it out (she can probably cuss but not heave).

 

Alternator hasn't failed (yet), but voltmeter continues to exhibit that up and down behavior which worries me no end (the battery is a good 'un and I think this fact is preventing further trouble....for now).

 

Bob

[coastline taxis]

What area are you in

[bobtuck]

'lo Coast....I'm in the Teesdale area, 15 miles upstream of Barnard Castle.

[Johndouglas]

So you're 45 miles apart. :rolleyes: