Power Steering Leaking Fluid

[Howiec]

Hi, I bought my C5 tourer 58 138 hdi back in may 2013, before purchasing it I identified a leak on the power steering rack and agreed that the dealer would repair the problem before the sale. This was done,  but since that time it has been back twice for the same issue and not repaired successfully. The leak was apparently coming from the steering rack seals,  which were only all replaced on the last repair visit. This I was told, was the reason why the problem wasn't resolved on the first two attempts.

 

The same fault has now returned for the forth time!  On this occasion with a total loss of fluid overnight on the driveway.

 

I can now only assume that there is an internal problem with the rack,  which is possibly damaging the seals.

 

I have lost all faith in the dealers ability to repair the fault and intend to return the car for a full refund and to recover all moneys spent on the vehicle since I purchased it.

 

I have posted this thread as a warning to potential buyers (not a moan) :rolleyes: to check for this kind of problem before buying a C5, as I have discovered to my great cost this is a common problem with the power steering. 

 

I do intend to purchase another C5 tourer as I love the car,  but will have it inspected professionally this time.

 

Any views on the reason for this problem would be welcome,  so I know what to look for on my next purchase.

 

Thanks Howard.

[Johndouglas]

I think you'll have your work cut out to achieve a full refund on a car bought seven months ago.   If, other than the steering rack problem, you like the car, could you not insist on a replacement rack.   Fully remanufactured racks are available for around £250 with a two year warranty.

[Howiec]

Hi John , Thanks for the info on the rack, I thought they would be more expensive than that, so I will suggest it as an option before returning the car.

 

The dealer has told me he spent £1000 on the original repairs, which is hard to believe.

 

I have been in touch with citizens advice and they tell me that because the fault is a pre sale issue, I should be within my rights to return the car if the problem can't be resolved after giving the dealer reasonable chance ( 3 attempts) the resolve the problem.

[paul.h]

I had the rack seals fail on a Saab 9-5 some time ago, probably the wrong fluid had been put in which affected the seals at both ends of the rack so the oil went overnight. The oil was the wrong colour. The warranty company would only pay for a recon rack but having previously fit one on a Saab 900 which never seemed right afterwards, I decided a new one would be best but had to pay the difference. I also had new tie rod ends fitted. No more problems after this.

 

If you have the steel springs so the steering fluid is not part of the suspension, I would have the rack changed but also get them to flush out all the old oil from the pipework and pump. If the fluid is shared with the suspension (as in the earlier models) then consideration needs to be given to the suspension. You might find one of the repairs tried was an additive to swell the seals which may have worked for a while but if they have spent £1000 I would have expected a new rack x 2 for this. I would also check if any of the rubber piping has gone soft if the wrong oil has been used.

 

If you do decide to return the car there will probably be a reduction in what you get back due to the time you have used it. A car of this age may go down in price by about £2000 a year so you might get about £1000 less. Have a look on the Citroen site for used cars to get an idea of prices.

[Howiec]

Hi Paul, on reflection I think I may have it repaired myself and try to reclaim the cost from the dealer.

 

I managed to find the source of the leak today and took a picture.  It seems to show its coming from the union where the flow and return pipes attach to the rack, next to the steering column.  It appears to have a figure 8 shaped bracket that clamps over the pipes to hold them into position. The fluid can be seen running off the pipe in the picture

On closer inspection the figure 8 clamp looks and feels like it is broken at the bottom edge underneath the lower pipe I am able to move the pipe 10mm either way and can see the seal around the pipe.

I have also realised that the leak occurred on a night with a heavy frost on Friday, possibly the seal contracted allowing the fluid to seep past the seal. It doesn't appear to be losing any fluid when the  I am going to try to upload the pic if that helps. Do you think I could find a replacement clamp/bracket without buying a complete rack.

 

Thanks for help on this matter

[paul.h]

The Citroen parts diagrams do not show this part separate to the rack or piping.

 

If the photo shows the high and low pressure pipes to the rack from the pump, there is a picture in the Citroen procedures which shows the clamp having a cut out at the bottom and possibly at the top depending on the rack/maybe car rpo. So it may be the clamp is as originally supplied and without the cut out it would not be possible to fit the 2 pipes separately. It looks as if the clamp would be part of the top pipe and the parts diagram of this pipe seems to show something there. When replacing the pipes it says to replace the O-ring seals. But these seals are not listed in the parts diagrams so are not readily available - we had a post not long since of a similar leak somewhere in the piping on a new model C5 and Citroen wanted to sell a complete pipe, coastline advised to try an ordinary O-ring but I do not know the outcome since I can not remember seeing a final post.

 

If one or both of the 2 O-ring seals is leaking, then possibilities include - the seal may be damaged/swollen/perished/the wrong size, the pipe flare or rack seal contact face may be damaged, the clamp may not be tight enough - so you would think it would not be difficult to sort out, just replace the faulty part, but if a cheap seal does not work then an expensive pipe or rack may be needed. It could well be a replacement seal has been used but of the wrong type of rubber so the oil has affected it. If it helps you can see the parts diagrams as a free service on the service.citroen site - you need to register as another professional, member of the Citroen Owners Club, which is allowed as a member of a car club in the terms/conditions.

 

Also check the rack seal where the column enters, I once had one leak on a car. Tests are probably best done by cleaning the oil off, running the engine and turning the steering each way to pump oil around and then checking again for the leak.

 

 

The procedures also note a modification where the lower attached pipe fastens at its middle to the subframe - a new design of clip has to be used. I do not know if this has any affect on leaks.

[coastline taxis]

wasnt there a post on here just a few weeks ago. a member from gateshead had the same problem and was told hed have to gwt a new set of pipes in order to get the seals as they cant be bought seperate

[Howiec]

I also remember seeing the same post but not sure where.

I have had the car in and it is leaking from the high and low pressure pipes as they enter the rack. As the rack has apparently been overhauled the next course of action is replacing the pipes if seals can't be found separately.

This is in the hope that the faces inside the rack aren't damaged. Can u recommend the best place to buy from, would it be citroen direct? Thanks Howard

[paul.h]

This is the other post by jefflad, he has not been back since 1st October so I do not know what happened. Looks as if the leak is from the same location, where the pipes join the rack. http://www.citroen-owners-club.co.uk/citroen/topic/20370-power-steering-issues/

so it may be a common problem. You would think then that Citroen would sell the seals unless there is more to it than just seal replacement. I have sent a message to jefflad to see if he has sorted the leak.

[jefflad]

Yeah, no further forward... still top it up every other week and watch it leave its mark on my drive and parking space at work :(

 

Coastline did offer his assistance in this and did try to organise things but for one reason or another it didn't quite happen. As it stands I'll be picking a garage local to me after Christmas, take it in and get just pay to get it fixed but I won't be using Citroen as they've well and truly p****d me off with all the correspondence I've had with them or for that matter buy another citroen :( and I love my C5.

[Howiec]

I am negotiating with the dealer to see if he will pay for the replacement pipes and seals, I will let you know how much they costs to supply and fit once its done. Hopefully this will solve the leak. Thanks Howard

[Parkesie]

Ive been struck by the same leak :( tried some o rings from a multi pack no good still leaking. Citroen parts desk couldnt find a part number still.

[Howiec]

Hi Parkesie, I did try to tighten the hexi nut on the clamp shown in the picture above. It only moved about 1/8 of a turn but it hasn't leaked since, I'm not convinced that it made any difference but its worth a try as you can reach it by just removing the wheel and a long ext bar. The fluid emptied out when it was frozen one night, I suspect the seals may have shrunk (like the space shuttle) :-)  but i am just guessing. Cheers Howard.

[Parkesie]

Ive been busy got in and had a proper clean up and chucked some orings in still leaking.

As id cleaned it all up i could see that appeared to be leaking from the steering input seal. Removed the large rubber cover in the foot well and could clearly see a nice leaky input seal. Boooooo

4 hours of crawling around dropping the subframe out it comes.

 

 

image by Parkesiemtb, on Flickr

 

A recon rack is on its way tomorrow so should hopefully only take a few hours to get it all back together.

[paul.h]

Start with the front wheels pointing forward and the steering wheel central so when the new rack is connected up to the steering column the steering wheel will not need adjusting. Once the rack is replaced I would take it straight to a garage for the tracking to be set up. I replaced one on a Saab once (also used a recon one but not too sure of its quality) and measured the track rods ends location/no of turns to remove/etc but once moving the car seemed to steer all over the place and metal drain covers in the wet were awful. I used a tyre place but found the adjustment was not done equally on both sides so had to make some adjustments again.

[Parkesie]

Started with everything in the straight ahead position. Car has the turning light option so i dont want one light on all the time + nothing worse than a wonky steering wheel.

Tracking will be sorted at work if i can find the guages if not its into the local car garage.

 

In summary if you think those pipes are leaking check the rack input seal as that leaks and runs down to the pipes. And £1050 for a rack from citroen is nuts.

[paul.h]

Just wondering if the seal failed early due to all the rust on the shaft - if this is the cause, keeping it greased up could be a way of preventing it. Maybe others with this problem could have a look. Pity a new seal is not available (Citroen do not show one on the parts diagram), then the old one could be poked out and replaced - did this once on a BL car.

[Parkesie]

Wouldnt be surprised if that is whats happened to it. No play in the shaft and still worked well. Since its such a faff getting the rack out a recon rack at 200 seems well worth the money knowing it wont leak.

[Parkesie]

New rack arrived wrong one. They ordered the earlier model even after double checking its the 08 to current one i need. Try again :)

[johnfing]

I bought a 08 c5 two years ago. Discovered same problem.  It was leaking before I bought the car. After two years and several garages including citroen dealer all diagnosing the o rings as the problem i discovered myself it was the seal on input shaft exactly as above picture including rust. I was lucky to get a second hand steering rack out of a 2012 car. there was a small bit of rust on input shaft of new rack. I put grease on shaft and hope this will prevent problem in future. There is obviously a fault in the design that causes the problem.

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

Your experience is useful in helping to prevent this problem.

[Parkesie]

Recon rack turned up couple of hours to fit then a quick test drive and all is well no more leaks.

2 places let me down sending incorrect racks.

These guys sorted me out with the correct part next day delivery

http://www.acspowersteering.co.uk

Cant comment on the longevity of the rack but its the right one and appears to be of good quality so they get a thumbs up from me.

[Andymuggwump]

Greetings all. New to the forum and I have the exact same problem. My steering rack was leaking from the input shaft and my garage sent the rack away for reconditioning (£415 inc labour and vat) Now it's back on the car and the two pipes that most others are having the problem with are now leaking due to re using the same o rings as an alternative to forking out £150 each for new  pipes.

Parkesie - what I'm a little confused about is that if you had a recon rack fitted didn't they change the pipes too? otherwise you'd probably be in the same position I'm in as once disconnected they need to be renewed (which is ludicrous!)

I'm about to go and collect the old o rings from the garage (independent in Lincoln) and take them to Pirtek to see if they can match them, it's a last ditch attempt at saving hundreds more £££s.

 

Any body have any opinions as to whether the exact same o rings will sort it out or do new pipes them selves also play a part in stopping the problem?

[Andymuggwump]

Seems to be an all too common problem.

When are Citroen going to take some responsibility for this and show a little good will or at least supply the correct o rings separately.

 

I'll never buy another Citroen. I've only had the car for 6 weeks and it's been off the road for 3!!!

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

I believe Parkesie replaced the rack himself and I suspect the old pipes and o-rings will have been used, otherwise it would have been mentioned.