C5 Mk2 1.6Hdi Estate 2007 Soft Ride: Sphere Dampers Gone?

[Smerflet]

Hello and thanks for adding me to the group!

 

We've had the C5 for about three years now during which time I've done loads on it (handbrake caliper, handbrake cable pipes, heater flaps, turbo fix, EGR fix, tailgate window, hi-level brake light etc. etc.) However the main issue for me which remains is the quality of the ride. This is the first Citroen I've had with fancy suspension, let alone Hydractive 3, and so I've nothing to compare it with, but I can't help feeling that the ride is way too soft/uncontrolled. When driving my usual thought is "surely they didn't design it like this" as it pitches and wallows. It has what I believe to be the usual floating ride, but on anything other than a billiard table road I can't abide it. It seems somewhat better when heavily loaded, but that's seldom how I use it.

 

Obviously there is much discussion of the opposite problem when a sphere goes flat and the suspension goes rock hard, but how common is it after 117,000 miles for the damping elements within the spheres to be shot whilst the charge pressure remains OK? Talked to one independent Citroen specialist and he reckoned that he'd never changed a C5 sphere. OK so I could exchange them, but I don't want to do it speculatively due to the cost and inconvenience involved.

 

BTW the levelling function/suspension pump appears to be working OK, and I have no suspension-related fault codes.

 

Any assistance would be most appreciated!

 

 

Stuart

 

 

[Randombloke]

The damping as far as I understand it is done by the LDS, which is constantly being refreshed.

 

If it's overly soft then it may be that bushes, drop links or other suspension mounts are worn. 

 

With H3 it should limit roll on corners too. 

 

Again, that might be problem with the anti roll bar.

 

Never know the spheres be too soft....

 

Check the tyre pressures and if need be go up by 10% on the normal (not heavy load) ones. This should make a big different as Mk I/II C5 has the tyre pressures as part of the overall suspension compliance.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Randombloke

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum.

 

You could also check the lds fluid level is correct, if not already done. It should be just covering the bottom of the tank filling neck filter when the suspension is on the lowest setting.

[Smerflet]

Thanks for your suggestions.

 

Randombloke: >>>The damping as far as I understand it is done by the LDS, which is constantly being refreshed.

 

I'd agree: it has to be the fluid which damps, but it must be the action of the LDS passing through some valves somewhere in the system. Please can someone confirm where such valves are located, be they in the spheres or elsewhere?

 

I thing that links and rubbers etc are fine - it sailed through the last MOT - but I will have another look. There's certainly no knocking.

 

Paul:>>> ...LDS fluid level

 

I'll check this. Is there a fluid level warning system which kicks-in before the level gets critical? The gaiters are a little wet at the back so I might be losing some fluid.

 

Thanks again,

 

 

S

[paul.h]

The lds does not have a low level warning.

 

If the rear gaiters are wet then probably the rear struts need replacing. I had to do this on our C5 after first trying just replacing the gaiter but it continued to leak, just a few drops a day but after living with it for a year I had it replaced. Dealer time is about 1 hour so labour is not too expensive but in 2013 it cost about £240 including the parts to replace one rear strut.

[MikeLane]

Have you seen this?

 

 

Not sure which model you have but Hydractive 3+ was fitted to Exclusives and these had "Stiffness Acumulators" front and rear.

[Smerflet]

Mike,

 

Thanks, that's interesting. My C5 has H3 not H3+.

 

Paul,

 

Thanks for that. I'll check the reservoir level and the amount I'm losing and decide from there.

 

Q. Am I right in thinking that if the system were low on LDS then on high position, if indeed this could be reached, the pump would keep operating?

 

Cheers,

 

 

Stu

[Smerflet]

I'm still unsatisfied with the ride and now I'm seriously considering exchanging the spheres. Please has anyone had any particular experiences with specific brands of OEM or aftermarket spheres? I see them available from Monroe, Febi/Bilstein: do they all have the same longevity? And does anyone know who made the OEM units please?

 

Those from 'sphere-shop' IFHS look tempting, and they offer a set of four 'freshly-charged' units for around £200. I also see that they offer 'comfort' versions, but as I'm looking for a firmer ride I suspect that these are not for me. Again, has anyone used these?

 

Thanks for your input.

[Smerflet]

For better or worse I ordered the Monroe versions from Germany today, plus 2 litres of LDS too.

[MikeLane]

I forgot to ask, which cars have you owned before?

Generally, if they were German, the ride would be much stiffer so your C5 ride might be "normal".

Isn't the damping provided by compressing the nitrogen in the "dry side" of the sphere's membrane?

[Smerflet]

Mike,

 

My other car is a 2001 VW Passat so, yes, I might be judging it by the wrong standards!

 

I've also had 2.0HDi mk2 Xsara estates x2 - conventional suspension of course.

 

I'm almost certain that damping is achieved on the 'wet' side of the sphere, as shown in certain images on Google. That is unless it's Hydractive 3+ where, from what I can see, the damping is variable and in the strut body.

[Smerflet]

.....Isn't the damping provided by compressing the nitrogen in the "dry side" of the sphere's membrane?

 

Please see the following image:

 

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/GiveMeABreak2/FCF/Sphere%20Info.png

 

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/GiveMeABreak2/FCF/Sphere%20Info.png

[Smerflet]

Finally got around to replacing all four spheres today. Once I'd loosened them - cheap tool from eBay absolutely invaluable - the process was pretty straightforward, and bleeding was surprisingly simple.

 

The result? Well, I'd say that the ride has been pretty much transformed: the pitching and wallowing appears to much better controlled and the car now feels 'right'. The big surprise for me was, having lost perhaps 200cc of LDS through bleeding and dismantling, I needed a full 2 litres of LDS to fill the tank to the minimum level. This raises the question, previously hinted at by paul.h: was it necessary to change the spheres, or was the system just short on fluid? I'd assured myself that if the LDS level was critically low then the car would not assume the 'high' position, and I'm still unsure of this. However with the quantity of LDS in the reservoir the pump 'sounds' different, but this might just be the effect of fresh oil?

 

Ah well, it's done now, and I've ordered some more LDS to keep topping-up the system to counteract the slight wetness on the N/S rear strut.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

Stu

[paul.h]

Good to see you have sorted this. I usually check the lds level about once a year on our C5. On your rear struts there is a vent pipe from the gaiter that has an open end in the rear axle, have a look at these just in case the leaking strut is losing more fluid than you thought.

[Smerflet]

Paul,

 

Thanks for that.

 

Regarding the vent pipe, please can you clarify: does the pipe vent into a closed volume which then acts to retain leaking fluid to stop it landing on the deck? If so does ot have a large capacity?

 

Thanks again,

 

Stu

 

PS are you aware whether a system low on fluid will 'self purge' if the level is filled?

PPS the pump def. sounds different now. Any thoughts why please?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Smerflet

[paul.h]

The vent pipe is a black plastic one from the top of the gaiter and the end is just poked in to the axle which has quite a large volume. If you pull the pipe out of the axle you would see if it is leaking oil by any mess/drips on the end of it. When one of the struts on our C5 was leaking from the end of the gaiter, there was no sign of any oil from the vent pipe but it is just something you could check.

[Smerflet]

Thanks Paul,

 

Any guidance as to what degree of leakage then justifies taking action please?

 

Stu

[paul.h]

Not really, I just replaced the rear strut on our car to save having to clean the drive but then left it over a year.

[Smerflet]

Paul,

 

Please can I request your view on the following. Today I decided to recheck the LDS fluid level immediately after a 1.5 hour drive. The reservoir seemed to be under a fair bit of pressure and as I released the cap, fluid was ejected around the cap. I could also hear a fair bit of 'bubbling' in the system as I released the pressure. The level of fluid in the reservoir (at normal ride height) was quite high but not quite up to the hole in the side of the filler.

 

Having heard stories of reservoirs splitting under pressure, I'm a bit concerned that now there's too much LDS in the system: could this be the case? I don't understand why the level is so high now, the level having not even been visible when I filled-up immediately after the sphere change. I'm sure that expansion due to heating could not have resulted in such an increase in fluid volume, or am I wrong? Also if I drop the ride height with it potentially over the MAX level marker, will this result in more fluid returning to the reservoir, again risking splitting under pressure? Should I do this with the cap off and allow the LDS to overflow?

 

Sorry for so many questions, but I want to get this right!

 

Thanks,

 

 

Stu

[paul.h]

I would check the level again before going for a drive and with the suspension at the lowest setting.

 

I have never checked the level in our C5 just after using the car but there is usually some pressure to vent off so I release the cap slowly and have a rag near. It could be the fluid you had ejected was some that had splashed up to the cap whilst driving.

 

From memory the total volume of lds is about 5 litres so I can not imagine it expanding 10 or 20% when it warms up to raise the level too high by 1 or 2 litres.

[Smerflet]

Thanks Paul,

 

I'm thinking the same way - put the suspension on the lowest setting and draw off excess.

 

I think it likely that when the pressure is relased in the tank there's a bit of a maelstom with air bubbling back through the LDS, throwing it up to the cap. I certainly don't drive sufficiently vigourously to throw it around too much.

 

Regarding expansion, I think it is possible that if the level - after topping-up - is just below the fill line when cold then thermal expsnsion could then fill the ullage. Are split tanks a reality? Seems odd that there's not a pressure relief valve somewhere - there's one in the coolant system so why not on the LDS?

 

Thanks again,

 

Stu

[paul.h]

When you have the tank cap off, have a look to see if it has pressure relief built in to it, like on the coolant expansion tank. Split tanks can happen, it seems to be common on the 2008 on C5 if the front is jacked up and the wheels left hanging without first slackening the tank cap and the Citroen service box procedures warn against this.

 

If you do need to remove any excess fluid, turn the suspension lock to lock first in case there is some air in the steering system.

[Smerflet]

One further question please.

 

My 2007 C5 has been off the road for five weeks over the summer whilst I dismantled and cleaned out the dreaded 1.6HDi engine after encountering lubrication failure due to coke in the oil from the injectors. I'm sure you know the story!

 

Anyway, the front end of the C5 was supported on axle stands for 5 weeks during which time the front axles were suspended on mid-air, for better or worse with the suspension set in the lowest position: don't ask me why I did this - it's been a long and very frustrating summer! Anyway on completion, the pump is now much noisier than previously and it takes longer to get up to full height, sometimes not making it at all. Further, I've had a couple of occasions after driving for while - time for the LDS fluid to get hot - when I've heard a pop and hiss from under the bonnet after which the top of the LDS fluid reservoir is wet with oil. Back in May I changed the spheres and topped-up the LDS fluid but not excessively - see above. I now suspect that through hanging the wheels up in the air for so long I've caused air to get in somewhere and mess with the bled state of the Hydractive suspension. I'm yet to attempt to bleed the system again, but I'm concerned that I might have damaged the pump which certainly doesn't sound as smooth and effective as it did before. However, as far as I can see, at least the reservoir doesn't seem to have split with the pressure therein.

 

Please can anyone advise me what might have happened?

 

Thanks,

 

 

Stu

[paul.h]

You could check the lds level is still ok and maybe turn the steering lock to lock in case this needs bleeding. The pumps can build up carbon in the motor which can be cleaned out if it stops working and starts to blow the maxi fuse. If the battery is not fully charged that can lead to the pump running slowly.

[coastline taxis]

change the lds fluid . at 2007 your running on 10 year old fluid that has obly ever bee topped up