Particulate Filter

[citroeneddie]

Kfk

 

Does the particulate filter on my 1.6 Hdi 110 need changing at 62.5k or at 75k?

 

The service book says earlier, but I thought I heard my Dealer say latter.

 

Thanks

 

Eddie

 

Ps, it's been fine since a sensor was changed in the system.

 

PPS read an article today that all diesels will have to have part.filters for new directive EEC emissions and will add about £600 to the cost of a diesel car.

[kfk]

All New Look C5 (not to be confused with the early models)

 

Engine types They must be changed

DV6TED4 (1.6 16v HDi)

- prior to RPO No. 10369 120 000 km (75 000 miles)

DV6TED4 (1.6 16v HDi)

- from RPO number 10370 180 000 km (112 500 miles)

 

DW10BTED4 (2.0 16v HDi) 180 000 km (120 000 miles)

DW12TED4 (2.2 16v HDi) 120 000 km (80 000 miles)

DW12BTED4 (2.2 16v HDi) 210 000 km (140 000 miles)

[citroeneddie]

Kfk

 

According to my V5C, my engine no is JB 100010046.

 

Presumably the last 5 numbers would relate to the filter changing at 75k?

 

Thanks

 

Eddie

[kfk]

Nope.

 

The RP number will be found on the sticker with your tyre pressures on the door hinge pillar.

[citroeneddie]

RP no 10174. So need changing at 75k then.

 

Kfk, many thanks for your help over the year, so have a peaceful Xmas and a prosperous New Year.

 

Regards

 

Eddie

[paul.h]

I will second that for kfk, it is a delight to have him on this forum (and others) and be so willing to give up so much of his time for our help at all sorts of hours of the day and night.

[cjp]

Hi, just joined because of a problem with my C5 2.2 Diesel estate, and HORRIFYING costs from my "local" dealers. The dash warning light reads" diesel additive at minimum level". Conversations with my local dealers start off fine, "Oh!yes, that is the additive that is injected into your tank every time you put diesel in", Ok, so whats the cost of this ? "Well depending on your RPO #, c£30 or £60", Great that's 0k(me), "ah! but there's more ! "there's also this filter, and probably an ECU, and probably another filter too may be required, so up to£800". !*!* (me), from £30 or £60, how come ? "well, the ECU can't usually be reset because the software doesn't (nearly) always work, and anyway it has a time limit life, and the filter is usually blocked, and the other filter(? not sure on this, me), is usually done at the same time.

WOW!! what just happened ! £30-60 to c£800 !!!!!!!!!

My car is a Jan 02, 63k on the clock, regularly serviced, NO advice on this in the owner/ service manual other than a casual comment, "should be replaced at c50k miles ", nd here I was avised to wait until the light came up as there are variations on life time.

How do I get out of this ? I'm a Citroen owner, get me out of this HORRENDOUS cost ! ANYONE ?

Is this the PFK ?/ RFK? topic I have been reading about ? CJ.

[yugs]

I would try & find a dealer who is willing to top up the fluid only & then see how you get on. On my last C5 the dealer topped up the fluid only at a cost 147 pounds at 56,000 miles & I sold the vehicle at 76,000 miles.

If the regenerative system is working on your vehicle why should the DPF need replacing so early? If you do a lot of motorway miles you are probably providing about the best duty cycle for the regenerative system to work at its best.

A new ECU sounds ridiculous unless Citroen are taking the opportunity to make some major changes to the regen' system because they have had problems & are passing on the costs to the customers. I'd love to know just what they are up to. Changing ECU's, fluid types, DPF types - it all sounds fishy to me & doesn't bear much relationship to what they state in the handbook.

[kfk]

a comment i passed elsewhere

 

In addition you have to ask yourself, what does any filter do?

 

Well as far as i'm concerned its device that removes something from whatever passes through it.

 

This will mean that in due course it is going to block. Now in this instance it doesnt block with carbon particles. This is because they are being burned of during the regeneration process. It becomes blocked over time with the eloys fluid which unfortunately cannot be burnt of in the process. Hence Eloys fluid and filter require replacement at the same time.

 

The changes in the type of eloys fluid and the quantity used have reduced. This in turn has extended the service interval. Additionally the computers that deliver the eloys are also different as is the injector that supplys it to the tank.

 

So next question: Can i use the later type oil - no you cant due to the calibration issues of the eloys computer and injector.

 

So.......should you decide to just have the Eloys topped up you will pay out to have 5 litres of fluid and the labour to initialise the computer. Then shortly after you will have messages stating Filter Blocked. You can ignore this if you like, but the problem will become worse untill your limited to 1,500rpm......this fault ussually occurs trying to overtake something going uphill. Restarting the vehicle wont always clear the fault and ussually involves awaiting a recovery truck.

 

At this stage you will be needing the particle filter replaced and the Fluid topped up again (it will run out early otherwise).

 

Some people might be lucky and get away with a top up......but is that doing the job properly and maintaining reliability/performance/fuel economy?

[yugs]

Ahh, that's enlightening. I'm very grateful for that posting.

I had read that PSA had changed the Eloys fluid chemistry & the DPF design and extended the service interval to 75000 miles on later C5's.

Why can't a DPF be exchanged without having to top up the fluid again? and just what is the declared service life of the DPF supposed to be?

I don't mean to hassle you but you are my only source of info on the subject at the moment & your comments are much appreciated.

[kfk]

The Service life of early particle filter systems is 50,000 miles.

 

As i said in the previous post it isnt the soot/carbon that blocks the particle filter. The reason it becomes blocked is due to the eloys fluid which the system cannot burn.

 

So......next question...... if i dont use eloys fluid will it block?.......yes it will with soot/carbon and it will block quicker.

 

Its a bit off a chicken and egg situation.....you dont want it blocked with carbon so you use the eloys as a catalyst to assist the burning process which in due course will block the sytem itself.

[yugs]

It would be nice if my service booklet stated that the DPF needs replacing at 50K. It says clean, which we now know the dealers cannot do & means an exchange for a cleaned unit from Citroen (& which the dealers cannot easily afford to stock). Are Citroen providing the same design of DPF in exchange & is the fluid the same (rhetorical question). If they go for a later DPF & go for the new Eloys fluid then a new calibration would be req'd & that means a re-flash of the ECM if it's programmable, which I doubt, or more likely a new ECM & cal'. This might well mean an improved system performance, less warranty problems, extended service interval, dealers stocking the one type of fluid, etc. etc. but, the gent below mentioned a potential bill of upto 800 pounds - Phew! Is the poor old customer, in certain circumstances, having to meet the costs for this sort of thing I wonder.

Enough on this subject for me for now. Touch wood - my C5 has not given me any troubles at all to date (apart from excessive rear tyre wear - courtesy of my driving style & a suspect rear subframe it seems - I'll live with the tyre wear as I won't be paying for the subframe). Apart from looking like a French Hearse, it's a stonking good car & I'm really quite fond of it. It's my 2nd C5 as well, so I must like them.

We'll have to wait & see what happens when the top up additive warning message appears .... :blink:

[CoolCarbon]

It's a bit disconcerting that at no time prior to buying my latest C4 did I read anywhere or was I told that I face a potentially staggering Bill for up to £800 to have the DPF serviced...

 

This could well have influenced my choice of New Car...

 

This could of course affect the resale value of the Car if I were to be looking to sell it around the mileage when the filter etc. needed to be serviced, a very poor situation to be in!

 

I'm all for being Environmentally friendly, but I feel we are being taxed enough as it is for the pleasure of using our cars...this adds up to just another one, and one for which the Government doesn't appear to give a rebate for... :(

[citroeneddie]

I beleive that all diesel cars will have a particulte filter as standard very soon due to an EEC directive.

[citroeneddie]

Just had a 62.5k service and need to book in to replace particulate filter.

 

Garage says it takes about hour and a half to replace filter, and then hour and half for new eolys fluid to drain into tank by gravity.

 

Will let you know cost when job done.

[rolyatvad]

I took the advice of another posting on this forum and having experienced the "clean diesel filter as soon as possible", I removed the filter form the exhaust and washed it out with a high pressure washer. The car now responds faster, returns a better mpg and the warning has not made a re-appearance.

 

Forget forced regeneration by dealers or by driving at high revs for 15 mins etc, the filter becomes blocked with particles and residue that will not be removed by getting the filter hot. These particles are physically blocking the filter and can be washed out using the jet washer. This cleans the filter to, I guess, an almost new condition.

 

The filter is eaily removed, and it cost nothing to wash it out.

 

So, if you are experiencing the dreaded warning, jet wash the filter!

[kfk]

The forced regeneration process is vital to the particle filter as it is this that burns the carbon particles. It isnt carbon that blocks the filter but the Eolys fluid that is the catalyst that assists the burning of of the particles.

 

With regard to whether this has truly resolved your problem and returned the vehicle to its full potential, i would very much doubt it.......i would sugest it has made it 'better' and the light doesnt come on......which is all your looking for.

 

Do you seriously think dealers would charge customers several hundred pounds if there was a reliable cheaper way of doing it.......you might think were robbing bastards, but i can assure you sometimes you just have to accept that were telling you right thing.

 

I would also add the following comment......if you damage the core of the Particle filter it wont be accepted as an exchange unit....that adds £500 to your costs, so dont think about 'knocking it out'

[rolyatvad]

The forced regeneration process is vital to the particle filter as it is this that burns the carbon particles. It isnt carbon that blocks the filter but the Eolys fluid that is the catalyst that assists the burning of of the particles.

 

With regard to whether this has truly resolved your problem and returned the vehicle to its full potential, i would very much doubt it.......i would sugest it has made it 'better' and the light doesnt come on......which is all your looking for.

 

Do you seriously think dealers would charge customers several hundred pounds if there was a reliable cheaper way of doing it.......you might think were robbing bastards, but i can assure you sometimes you just have to accept that were telling you right thing.

 

I would also add the following comment......if you damage the core of the Particle filter it wont be accepted as an exchange unit....that adds £500 to your costs, so dont think about 'knocking it out'

 

Thanks kfk, I take your comments on board. After washing the filter there was a considerable amount (maybe more than 1 litre) of "ash" that had been washed out of the filter, this I suspect, was one of the main causes of the filter blocking up. There did not appear to be any evidence of the Eolys fluid causing any blocking, but I could only see the two filter ends and obviously not inside the actual filter element.

 

Just one question that comes to mind, if Citroen do send these filters away to have them cleaned, then it must be a physical process to remove the "ash". Subjecting the elements to high temperatures I don't think will remove the "ash". The "ash" is the result of the soot particles and presumably some of the fluid being burnt.

 

Anyway, time will tell as to the general success rate. I know the author of the original posting, informing of the washing method, had run his vehicle for several months without problems whereas before he was being subject to all sorts of warnings and limited revs.

[sarrybaldy]

Well c'mon Eddie, spilll the beans.

How much????

[Randombloke]

Well c'mon Eddie, spilll the beans.

How much????

 

I'm not Eddie but:

 

Particulate filter £143.75

Eolys fluid £77.59

 

Labour for this and the rest of the 75k service - £235.20

 

now add VAT to that.

 

For the rest of the 75k service, the usual filters and oils.

[Randombloke]

I've now done some 500 miles since the DPF change. Economy does not seem to be much better, but performance is.

 

I have a run to the Auvergne (France) to do starting Sat, will see how it goes. Car is superb for long distance blasts, and handling is improved after the replacement of anti roll bar links.

[Randombloke]

I've now done some 1,300 miles since the change of filter.

 

After the first tank of diesel, things improved very markedly on the economy front, with a 3 to 4 mpg improvement at a slightly higher speed.

 

Prior to DPF change, long term fuel economy according to computer was 38-ish mpg mixed driving over 1,500 miles. Checks via tank to tank gave 37-39.

 

Since DPF change, fuel consumption is now 41-42 mpg over 1,300 miles since service. Tank to tank manual gives 41-43 mpg. This is an improvement as the last 1,000 miles have been done at 75-85 mph target speed on the French motorways not 70 mph on British ones.

 

Things are still improving with much better mpg on runs with 50-60 cruising in traffic. I'm seen up to 47 mpg.

 

This was a number I was never near prior to the DPF change.

[citroeneddie]

Randombloke

 

Sorry for not coming back to you with regard to my filter change, I completely forgot as it is on a maintenence contract. When I am in for service next month I will let you know.

 

Regards

 

Eddie

[rolyatvad]

Just to report that since washing the particulate filter out, I have had no problems with the car or warning messages.

 

It may be worth a look at the following http://www.eminox.com/downloads/Eminox%20CRT%20Manual.pdf as it is about particulate filters in general and includes how they are cleaned. They recommend compressed air and extraction to clean the ash from them but warn about washing with high pressure water as this can compact the ash.

It's worth browsing the document as it gives some info on a particulate filter which is similair to the one fitted to the Citroen.

[citroeneddie]

Did you also top up the EOLYS fluid?