2003 C8 - Timing Belt - Car Going To The Grave

[Guest Pam C8]

Hi. A new member to the site and just looking for some advice, similar stories or any assistance for that matter that would help me in a very distressing situation.

I bought a 2003 (Mar) C8 second hand in Jan 06. Since then I have had lots of little, annoying issues/problems with the car but nothing too serious. Not until August 11th this year that is !!!

 

That was the day my timing belt went ping ! To cut a very very long story short.... 3 weeks later and my car is still in the garage. As 2 injectors are stuck in the cylindar head it is not possible to fix/repair/rebuild the old engine so I am now facing the prospect of putting in a new cylindar head or complete new exchange engine from Citroen at costs of approximately £6500/£7000. I think the current value of the car is about £4500 so I dont think it makes financial sense to throw thousands of pounds at it to get it fixed. I have spoken to various solicitors/consumer advice people and as at todays date, I have no come back on either the garage I bought it from or Citroen! I face paying for all the repairs out of my own pocket or scrapping the car. I owe the garage about £1500 already and that is just for labour costs to take out the engine and determine the damage to date. They will only offer me £1000 (trade in) for the car in its current (broken) state. And to top it all, I still owe £4k on a loan for the car (personal loan not HP)! Can the day get any better ???? :-)

 

The car has circa 57k miles on the clock and is just over 5 yrs old. The maintenance manual states that the timing belt should last until about 75/80k miles and/or 10 years old so I am way short of those.

 

The car is out of warranty and I have a full service history albeit not a Citroen one but fully stamped and up to date.

 

As the garage that I bought the car from has changed hands - I have no come back on them

Citroen will not assist or make any goodwill payment as the car is over (just) 5 years old

Citroen advise that the maintenance manual levels/age for replacing the timing belt is only a guide and not a guarantee so I cant take any course of action in that department!

 

Has anyone experienced a similar problem with their C8 or citroen car or does any one have advice as to how I might pursue this... any advice would be appreciated because I am at my wits end with this and facing massive financial costs... not to mention the grey hairs that have sprouted !

[Johndouglas]

What a sad story! There have been several posts on this and other forums where cambelts have snapped, sometimes long before they've reached the recommended figure. Unfortunately, if the car is out of warranty, the seller won't want to know. It isn't always possible to say exactly why the belt snapped. Could be a faulty tensioner pulley, a worn water pump, a shredded auxiliary belt, an oil leak or even a faulty clutch. In view of the huge expense of repairing your engine, have you explored the possibility of finding a replacement from a breaker? There must be many sound engines in accident damaged vehicles.

[techbod]

what engine and code? remember its used in the C5 as well ( injectors stuck in head? ) don't you mean broken valves stuck in head?,

 

getting a second hand head shouldn't be difficult but as already said ( find out why it broke in the first place ) and before you rebuild fit a new water pump and complete timing belt kit,

 

if you have good mechanic friends I don't see it costing more the say 5 to 600£ or less

[kfk]

The problem here techbod is that the injectors seize into the cylinderhead and until you can get the injectors out you cant remove the cylinder head to establish the rest of the damage.

[Guest Pam C8]

Thanks to you all for responding. As you will have guessed from my original posting, I am no expert on car engines and I was interest to see that it was also referred to as a 'cambelt'... I have been searching these sites and the internet trying to find people who have experienced similar problems but have been searching under 'timing belt' - can you please tell me if this part/component can be known as anything else? That may make my search more fruitful. I also spoke to the garage again today and found out that the C5 has the same engine - so does the Peugeot 806 seemingly so I will be doing searches for people that have had problems with them too. I just want to try and gather enough information around a few similar cases so we can go as a group to Citroen and try and get some financial support. Consumer Direct said that as an isolated case, I wont get much attention but if I can find a group of people with the same problem then they may take notice. I've potentially found 2 already (one on the Review Centre site) - in about 24hrs so there must be more out there!!! The technical stuff that I put in the first posting is just what the garage told me.. injectors stuck in cylindar head and also broken rockers and valves. The service manager also advised that in his opinion it was a failure of the belt and not anything else .. causing the belt to break. He checked the water pump/oil or other likely causes. The garage also suggested going to a breakers yard and trying to find a C5/C8/Peugeot 806 that still starts and they would willingly swap the engines for me.. enough to get it running and then get shot of it. I feel bad if it means some other poor soul ending up with it but I just cant afford to walk away from this with nothing. I cant afford to buy another car cause I am still paying off that piece to 'pooh' ! (sorry to any Citroen lovers but I'm just feeling a little disgruntled with the Citroen name just now!)

[techbod]

cam belt timing belt are the same thing

 

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=h...l%3Den%26sa%3DG

[techbod]

your car is 5 years old with 57k on it and they say the belt has a life of 75k or 10 years and under severe conditions 60k and it failed before that? sounds to me like you have a case with the timing belt manufacturer and the dealer because they sell the car with this guarantee ( trading standards is a good idea ) they have broke their contract because it didn't last as long as they stated ;)

[kfk]

But then not knowing the full service history of the vehicle, you dont know if at some stage a repair has taken place that has involved the removal of the cambelt earlier in its life and subsequently it has been repaired incorrectly. If this has occured any blame for the failure would then pass from Citroen UK to the last person to work on the cambelt or the cambelt manufacturer.....but we dont know that!

 

 

As far as a guarantee that the belt will last......the mileage and time limit is a recomendation that you shouldnt exceed....not a guaranteed life expectancy.

 

As for the Recall....i'd be interested to know what recall were on about?

[techbod]

obviously the belt and its components would need checking to prove otherwise and Gates who supply the belt and components have the ability to do that as do Citroen but I know what your saying about guarantees and recommendations which is a legal grey area, still though I would let Citroen do it because i'm sure they would like to prove blame to some one to help the owner out financially since she is going there to get the work done ( anything is worth a try ) you never know your luck ;)

[Johndouglas]

PamC8 bought this 3 year old car with 57K on the clock. Who is to say that before it was purchased it didn't have 'mileage correction'. Unless a VMC certificate was given verifying the mileage, in my opinion seeking recompense for the damage will get nowhere. Sorry to be a wet blanket.

[techbod]

any advice is good advice because it gives Pam something to think about and use in here favour so its positive advice ;) its so easy to demoralise someone with wet blanket replies even though its they are required and good advice ;)

[Guest Pam C8]

I appreciate all your input and advice. I am just trying to gather all the information... good or bad ... so that I can educate myself about all of this and then get myself in a better position to argue my case. I have taken legal and consumer advice and know of the 'challenges' I am going to face. I know that the the maintenance manual limits are guidelines, I know that a non-Citreon service history does not help my case and I know that the cars life, before I had the misfortune to own it, is not entirely known. However, my car is currently with a Citroen garage to get repaired and the service manager is willing to put in writing that it was the belt that failed. It is Citroen Uk in Slough that are bloody minded and refusing the help me and I presume that the local garage (being Citroen) must abide by that ruling. When I bought the car in Jan 06 it had c29k miles on the clock. Its service history before that was:

 

1st service at c10k miles (Mar 04) - citroen

2nd service at c 22k miles (Apr 05) - citroen

3rd service at c29k miles (Jan 06) - Reg Vardy

4th service at c40k miles (Jan 07) - my local garage

5th service at c51k miles (Jan 08) - my local garage

 

Citroen Uk say that they have a cut off time of 5yrs for cars - up to which point they may consider making goodwill payments to repairs such as this. Just unfortunate that my car is 5yrs 5mths !

 

I get varying suggestions from people that I have spoken to .. some say that I will get no where with Citroen and others say that if I am prepared to 'fight' then they will perhaps take notice and absorb some, if not all, of the costs. Lets face it, the amounts involved or a new engine to an organisation their size is surely just a drop in the ocean !

 

I can be like a 'dog with a bone' when it comes to things like this - especially as I feel passionately that I should not be having to pay for all this.... so I am determined to fight this until I have exhausted all avenues or options. They will be sick of hearing from me by the time I am finished. :rolleyes:

 

Ok, now that I've got that vented... I'm away for a nice soothing cuppa and will continue my crusade in the morning...bright eyed and bushy tailed ! ;)

 

I do appreciate all advice so please keep it coming.... thanks !

[CE08LDB]

Hi Pam, I am a Citroen owner and a fan of Citroen but I feel really gutted for you. I hope you get some luck with any of the avenues your going to explore.

 

I wish you good luck.

[Guest Pam C8]

Thank you for your good wishes.

 

I have just heard (through a secret squirrel source) that the Citroen garage where my car is has another C8 sitting with its engine in bits because of a broken cambelt/timing belt. Its a 54 plate so 18 months younger than mine but has done similar mileage. Interestingly though, seemingly Citroen are paying 90% of the repair costs for that owner !! How gutted am I ...

 

That just makes me even more determined :lol:

 

I have now found 6/7 C8 cases (cars similar ages) where the belt has gone but they are a mix of 2.0 and 2.2 engines. What I need to know now is ..... are the engines the same? I know that might be a silly question as there is an obvious different in the engine capacity but is it literally the same engine block or the same cam belt at least that is used in both the engine types?

 

Any technical advice about this would be appreciated. Ideally, if I could get hold of a site or literature that stated they were identical engines or used exactly the same belt/system then that would be fantastic.. can anyone help please?

 

Thanks

Pam

[coastline taxis]

Thank you for your good wishes.

 

I have just heard (through a secret squirrel source) that the Citroen garage where my car is has another C8 sitting with its engine in bits because of a broken cambelt/timing belt. Its a 54 plate so 18 months younger than mine but has done similar mileage. Interestingly though, seemingly Citroen are paying 90% of the repair costs for that owner !! How gutted am I ...

 

That just makes me even more determined :huh:

 

I have now found 6/7 C8 cases (cars similar ages) where the belt has gone but they are a mix of 2.0 and 2.2 engines. What I need to know now is ..... are the engines the same? I know that might be a silly question as there is an obvious different in the engine capacity but is it literally the same engine block or the same cam belt at least that is used in both the engine types?

 

Any technical advice about this would be appreciated. Ideally, if I could get hold of a site or literature that stated they were identical engines or used exactly the same belt/system then that would be fantastic.. can anyone help please?

 

Thanks

Pam

Hi sorry to hear of your car and dont want to appear full of doom and gloom but if you turn the table round you might understand it a bit better. Lets say you sold a car 5 years ago and when selling it you tell the new owners to bring it back to you every so many miles so you can check it over and make sure its kept at its best. You then never see the car again till 5 years later when someone you never even sold the car to in the first place turns up and wants some money of you what would your answer be. I know you havent had the car 5 years but look at citroens point of view. Ive got the citroen service schedule at work il check it as im sure there a check done on the belt for tension/wear etc etc if the car was serviced at citroen it would of been done

My advice would be to just get a engine from the scrappys (450 quid i can give you a number where there are 5 of them sitting in a yard) put a new belt/waterpump/clutch on it and enjoy the c8 there superb vehicles. Your picking up the bill for someone elses mistakes. Sorry to appear blunt but youl end up with a ulcer before anyone will own up to anything and with lack of dealer service history you havnt got a chance

[paulmc]

Similar thing happened to me

I have a 04 C8 2.0 HDI with 63000 miles on clock.

I bought it last October ( my 3rd Citroen after 2 Synergies) from local Citroen Main Dealer.

It has full Citroen service history from new.

4 weeks ago today engine stopped in the middle of journey. Luckily i was able to freewheel to the hard shoulder.

It seems the cam belt broke there and then.

Main dealer towed it back and has confirmed same.

Citroen ireland say they have no knowledge of any problems with these cars!! :huh: and that anyway its out of warranty,

 

The main dealer is currently fighting with them on my behalf.

 

I came accross this item on Eurovan2.com forum as well.... seems to be a common enough problem... newer cars are fitted with some kind of protective cover to prevent water getting onto the cam belt and rusting the steel reinforcement in the belt.,,

In some countries tere was a recall to have this cover fitted to older cars.

At the moment i have a C4 on loan from the main dealer so hopefully there will be a good result on this.

I will be selling it as soon as i get it back... too many other probelms with electrics, sliding doors etc.

:(

 

Also there is another C8 with engine out in the same garage... they wouldnt tell me why though

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

Pam - you are definitely not alone and not just in the uk.

 

The premature failure of the cambelt/timing belt (or zahnriemen in German) seems to be quite common on the C8/807/ulysse (aka eurovan2) cars. Have a look on the www.eurovan2.com forum and search for snapped cambelt. The seized injectors is also a common problem (also see http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index...5103226AAIhTy4).

 

Apparently when water comes off the windscreen, it gets directed towards the cambelt. Citroen and Peugeot introduced a new part (a plastic tray) to attach to the 2003-2005 models to divert the water away and in the newer models since then they have redesigned things to divert any water. I think they also cut the scheduled interval for the cambelt change as well. Peter1 on the eurovan2 site has lots of information on this.

 

There was never a recall to attach the plastic tray.

 

When the cambelt fails, it can be very scary and could cause an accident. There have been sufficient complaints to VOSA about this on the ulysse that VOSA have asked Fiat to investigate. I would suggest you and anyone else with the problem on the C8 contacts VOSA.

 

Please also email scouseart@aol.co.uk as he is trying to gather a list of people affected.

 

I was also looking for a replacement engine from 247spares and got in contact with a firm that specializes in breaking citroen/peugeot cars. They said

"these Peugeot,Citroen and Fiats engines are prone to having cam belt faliure and also the injectors failing." and that there is quite high demand for replacement engines

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

I must have been writing my post when Paul submitted his :huh:

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

I don't know if it will help but apparently coca cola can be used to dissolve/loosen the corrosion that seizes the injectors and can help getting them out.

 

As a last resort, Mr Muscle plug and sink unblocker might also dissolve the corrosion (assuming it is aluminium oxide and the caustic soda in Mr Muscle will dissolve it), but obviously it must be used with care and it might cause more damage.

 

Good luck.

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

Also try googling for c8 courroie (French for cambelt) and you get posts like:

http://www.forum-auto.com/marques/citroen/sujet1592.htm

which includes what google translates to:

 

Citroen knows the origin of the breakage on C8 belts ... I guess 807 for the same topo short ... to summarize it has an internal memo sent to all citroen technicians the network which requires the awning add a gutter in the expansion tank. In fact when it rains, water seeps down through the windshield, passed under the hood and drop on the belt .. . Result it takes moisture ... and it happens especially in winter ... freezing causes the shift of the belt and it breaks or simply belt breaks.

 

Citroen has a circular checked the belts and add the little piece of plastic to evacuate water from rain or Carchi. So if they have not done so in interviews their responsibilities is involved in the case.

 

I can find the number of the circular if you are concerned for their reckless than not release procedures ...

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

This is the link to the Peugeot fitting instruction for the tray:

http://www.eurovan2.com/forum/attachments/...akje-engels.pdf

 

Presumably Citroen issued something similar for part 8248.71.

 

It states "Engine fails to start following jumping out of teeth of the timing belt. Origin - Entry of water into the timing via the scuttle panel"

[paulmc]

This is the link to the Peugeot fitting instruction for the tray:

http://www.eurovan2.com/forum/attachments/...akje-engels.pdf

 

Presumably Citroen issued something similar for part 8248.71.

 

It states "Engine fails to start following jumping out of teeth of the timing belt. Origin - Entry of water into the timing via the scuttle panel"

HAving trawled through a number of forums on thi it seems there is no real consistency in the outcome.

Some people are lucky enough to get replacement engines/ parts at no cost, some have to pay a percentage of the overall cost and some are left with no option but to pay the full amount.

It amazes me that there hasnt been more publicity on this.

Unfortunately there are only a small number of C8's in Ireland so it looks like it is an uphill battle for me.

These cars are excellent in what they should do... carry a family safely and in comfort.. its only a pity they are let down by terrible build quality.

 

This is my 3rd Citroen and by far the first one i had a 96 Synergie 1.9TD was the best in terms of reliability and build quality. When i changed it for a 99 Synergie1.9HDI it was immediately obvious that the whole thing was not as solid as the older one.... a lot more cheap plastic. The pedal mount broke in it after 4 months and was fixed at a large cost. The syncromesh went in 2nd gear on that at 70000 miles so i had to change it.

 

I will never buy one of these cars again

[c8user]

Hi sorry to hear of your car and dont want to appear full of doom and gloom but if you turn the table round you might understand it a bit better. Lets say you sold a car 5 years ago and when selling it you tell the new owners to bring it back to you every so many miles so you can check it over and make sure its kept at its best. You then never see the car again till 5 years later when someone you never even sold the car to in the first place turns up and wants some money of you what would your answer be. I know you havent had the car 5 years but look at citroens point of view. Ive got the citroen service schedule at work il check it as im sure there a check done on the belt for tension/wear etc etc if the car was serviced at citroen it would of been done

My advice would be to just get a engine from the scrappys (450 quid i can give you a number where there are 5 of them sitting in a yard) put a new belt/waterpump/clutch on it and enjoy the c8 there superb vehicles. Your picking up the bill for someone elses mistakes. Sorry to appear blunt but youl end up with a ulcer before anyone will own up to anything and with lack of dealer service history you havnt got a chance

 

May I just add that the above points are valid. This is why I always go to a Citroen Dealer to get my C8 serviced so that if there is any come back then there is a fighting chance of some deal on any major repair.

 

You mention that you know of a phone number for a place where they have second hand engines, well I am wondering if you know if it is possible to change the front seats in a C8. The front seats in mine are starting to wear and may be a good idea to change them for leather (which may last a little longer). Any ideas?

 

Many thanks

[Guest Pam C8]

Hi, I've not been on the site recently but some of the postings that have gone on since my last visit have renewed my energies about this !! Thanks !!

 

My cambelt broke on the 11th August and it is still in the garage. I cant fault the local service manager and his efforts to help me with all this carry on and when this is all over and done with I fully intent to write and thank him for all that he had done to try and help me.

 

As an update to my saga.... I found a company in Berwick Upon Tweed called Border Engines who managed to get the two siezed injectors out of my cylindar head so I can now reuse it. Thankfully that will have saved me a small fortune but I am still facing a bill of approximately £3500, if not more. My local Citroen garage got the cylindar head back on Friday and they have told me they hope to have it repaired and running again by next Friday. I will then go and pick it up and drive it straight to the nearest forecourt and trade the sodden thing in (excuse my direct language but I really am running thin on patience with Citroen now)

 

My next moves however (no matter how exasperated I am feeling) is going to try another few courses of action to get Citroen to sit up and take notice. Through this site and all the really useful information that people have given me and another site called the 'Review Centre' I reckon I have found 7 or 8 people now that have had this problem. I'm going to gather all that information together, and write to Watchdog, Top Gear and Raw Deal and any other consumer related car/automative like bodies to try and get them to take up a case. Not just for me but for all the other poor Citroen owners who have suffered an awful lot of stress and financial loss because of problems with Citroen cars. Alone and as a single voice they are not listening to us.. as a group of people who can all tell/relate similar stories then surely someone will realise that there is a theme emerging here !! i.e. either the engines/cam belt or the point about the moisture trays that have been posted above - are cause premature failure of the belts and catastrophic engine damage.

 

I've had other personal matters to take care of recently but this/Citroen are on my list of things to do this week and I will keep you posted as to where I get.

 

Thanks again to the people who have posted stuff recently - I will be following up on this and adding it to my 'file of evidence' :)

[Guest RedGreenBlue]

Watchdog sounds like a good idea. I am sure they want another round with Citroen.

 

Also raise the issue with VOSA. Email Robert.Parry@vosa.gov.uk to get the Vehicle Safety Defect report form and get the people affected to send in the completed forms back.