Given Up

[iannez]

i think you are forgetting that once the tool is paid for the garage still has peoples wages and other overheads like rates etc to pay. its all well and good looking in as a consumer and expecting things for free but this is the real world people and a buisness is there to make money. i am sure you all know what happens to a buisness when it starts running at a loss. 3 garages in our area have closed down in the last few months due to lack of work. you all know how hard things are at the minute and you still expect a company to work for free. most of you will have jobs so do the companys you work for do anything for free. i doubt it. its sad but this is the way of the world of today and the reason its in this state. everyone expects something for nothing and they are always looking for something to complain about. but theres no complaints when there in the pub paying £2.50 a pint, over £5.00 for a packet of cigs or over £10.00 for a takeaway. its sad but its true.

[techbod]

you can pack in smoking and drinking :( you can also pack in over charging but as a dealer they cant let go and your answer is a perfect example,

I have the diagnostic too and it brings work and I don't charge to plug it in and tell them whats wrong but I do charge £5.00 to clear it when its just a bogus code which the dealer would have done differently :ph34r: ,

the question here is before you bought the tool didn't you have overheads in the first place and why does this too increase that? we all know you will recoup the cost of the tool so when do you stop charging for it?.

 

it would be nice to see the dealer give something back instead of thinking profit all the time after all to drop the cost of the diagnostic could give more work which means more profit ( the dealers are in a big depression at the moment so anything to give confidence would help ) no one is saying do it for free and your wrong when you say they have to charge as the USA proves like autozone let you use the tool free ;)

[ando7p]

..... you can also pack in over charging .......the question here is before you bought the tool didn't you have overheads in the first place ......

 

Spot on. I don't expect anything for free. I DO expect to be charged a FAIR price for a COMPETANT service. My previous note was for illustration and example only as stated and by no means constitutes a formal price guide.

 

I have had to produce many business cases to purchase tools, amongst other things, with expenditure into some very serious amounts of money (£7k is loose change) so know a little about this subject. Expensive kit can be bought without having to pass too much of the cost onto the customer. Problem with doing this is that it requires someone to actually think about it and think about the customer. Easy answer is to just simply pass the full cost on with the aim of the quickest cost recovery. All too easy to then 'forget' to reduce the costs again once the kit has been paid for.

 

Regards the recession, garages going out of business, not doing things for free and just whining about the cost of a dealer, yes it is sad to see business' fail, but that is innevitable in the current climate. What is also innevitable is that if a service provider does not 'dangle the carrot' then I will look for one that does, therefore they lose my business anyway.

 

My local indi looks after me, hence why they are now my first point of call and why I recommend them to friends and colleagues which keeps bringing them work to keep going, etc, etc. 'nuff said.

[techbod]

excellent topic and answers so a worthy post indeed and hopefully gets some results through the trade, we all know the cost of tools like diagnostics but you have to have them with the later cars to save time locating the problem due to it being EOBD/CAN bus, bring back the old engines lol j/k :(

[mlkey]

Think maybe you are all missing a few points..

 

I work at a motor manufacturer, and see first hand, how the manufacturer (yes the manufacturer) screws the dealer for every penny.

 

Lets start with diagnostics... First off it is a condition of signing up to become a dealership for just about any brand, that you purchase or lease the diagnostic kit, terminal software, dealer portal, branding and corporate stuff etc... There is often in addition to this, a yearly fee, to keep the diag up to date, as well as having access to technical assistance from the manufacturer, which in the case of the manufacturer I work with, is a scarey prospect on its own.

 

And what about warranty? Dealers get screwed to the floor with it, they have to do it at greatly reduced labour rates, and if by chance, a common fault appears which requires a campaign, the manufacturer will very quickly reduce the book time on that job to reduce their warranty bill from the dealers.

 

Would I use a main dealer? No. Why? Because it is expensive, and because I like to repair my own motors. I agree that dealers are too expensive for most owners unless the vehicle is under warranty, or it is basic stuff, but the fact remains, the dealer costs ARE pushed up by the manufacturer as they themselves seek to pull some revenue from the dealers, milking them for everything they can, and just like any business, the customer foots the bill ultimately.

 

So while I personally would not use dealers for the reasons above, I do have some sympathy for them in that they do not make anywhere near the money many people think, especially in these times where even their new car margins have been wiped out.

[techbod]

the dealer has to break even and with a little profit and that's normal ( I bought a tool, 10 years ago with upgrades yearly?) should I keep charging for its use it was 15k but it delivered results even now, its old but useful and updateable at silly costs, im glad im retired :(

[kfk]

i dont know really what people are going on about here.........we charge and initial inspection fee which includes plugging into the diagnostic equipment if applicable to the fault.

 

That fee will be decided upon the customers desctiption of the fault and ussually it amounts to getting the customer to agree to 'upto' an hours labour whilst investigating the concerns. If we can fix the problem within any agreed limits we do so, if it is apparent the fault will require longer to investigate we call the customer to agree any costs.

 

Most faults are diagnosed within the hour, however, some vehicles have more time spent on diagnosis than could reasonably be charged for....in which case the customer is either lucky we dont rip them off because we missed something in our checks, or they can be glad the workshop was quite that day!

 

The point i'm getting to though is.....when the customer gets the invoice we dont have a charge for use of the diagnostic equipment....the charge is for labour.

 

Something else i have learnt.......do something for nothing and it comes back to bite you.......so due to the public and there attitude i no longer do anything for nothing, if there gonna sue me i might aswell have earnt something in the first place!

[techbod]

spoken like a dealer :ph34r: now you know why the indi garages are getting all the work :( im not attacking the dealer im just laying a deck of other cards down to get a good responce mind you just how long does it take to run a diagnostic to retrieve the codes ( 5 mins )

[myglaren]

techbod. why are you so quick to condemn main dealers. i work for a main dealer (the one mentioned by coastline taxi's actually) and no one in our garage fits parts without component testing. we try to be more than fair. we even discount the price of the diag check from the bill if we repair the car. i know there are some bad dealers out there that charge the earth for a poor service but dont tar us all with the same brush mate.

 

That came as a surprise Iannez.

Your's is my closest dealer too and although it is very rarely I need to visit I have found that I have always been well received, treated with respect and courtesy and the parts supplied have been reasonably priced and I have even been given a discount, which was unexpected, unasked for and a very pleasant surprise.

I have in fact just recommended TCC on another forum :(

[coastline taxis]

The members on this forum have always or so i thought been very sensible,well informed, and aware of the way the world works. So why is it that the mention of the word DEALER and they seem to lose all rhyme and reasoning. It seems the diagnostic price is a bit of a topic and mentiond that it cost 7k to buy the tools and once that money has been recovered the fee should be lowered or free.

Why oh why would any buisness do that.

Town center citroen charge us £35.oo per diagnostic. now in order to do that diagnostic from what ive seen the following has to be paid for by them in order to do that diagnostic, And this is from the moment you drive in of the street

Rent/mortgage on building

Rates

electric

gas

water/sewage charge

refuse collection

duty of care complience

vat

tax

p.a.y.e

wages

public/employers liability insurance

diagnostic tool

updates/licence for the diagnostic tool

Training on how to use the diagnostic tool

insurance to drive your car

pats test on the plug for the diagnostic tool

boiler suit

plastic cover for seat

floor mat

steering wheel cover

 

Now the car is taken round the back and plugged in and they then pay for the following

 

Folder to put your paper in

paper

ink

pats test on the plug for the printer

 

now you have the full diagnostic paper in your hand and you read it. To most people it might as well be written in dutch so they then have to sit and go through it with you to explain it and suggest what they think it is using there experience and knowledge (gained through work experience and courses which again cost money)

 

now they wash the car put in a air freshner

Now theres probaly some other costs that ive missed out

so how on earth can anybody complain at 35 quid or a hourly rate of £50. How much do plumbers/electrician charge or your solicitor (£150 per hour ).Im assuming that to get a dealership is probally like buying a franchise where you pay for the right to display the citroen logo and you must only sell there products at there prices although i coulld be wrong on that.

So come on give the dealers a fair chance because at the end of the day if they dont make a profit they close then what. Well youd have a car with no main dealer back up and that would be no good and dont say it wont happen just look at the news gm/saab/nissan/bmw/volvo all struggling.

 

Yes it would be nice to have a standard diagnostic charge right across the board but it could never happen. there is just to much to take in to do that. Your car/house/ insurance is all decided by where you live also your rates and probally loads of other thing.

So come give the dealers a chance. I for one think that the dealers we use(town center citroen again) give excellent value for money only fault i can find is that the free cup of coffee you get if your waiting is a bit strong

[techbod]

so its rattled some cages but that's how democracy works ( it isn't an attack on the dealer as I have stated ) and these sites are to help those who cant afford the dealers prices? or have I got it wrong :( don't take it personal chaps its only a debate :ph34r:

[kfk]

spoken like a dealer :ph34r: now you know why the indi garages are getting all the work :( im not attacking the dealer im just laying a deck of other cards down to get a good responce mind you just how long does it take to run a diagnostic to retrieve the codes ( 5 mins )

 

As for the indie garages........its suprising how many book them in with us because they cant diagnose them themselves, unfortunately by the time they and all there mates have had a look you know any faults recorded will be caused by random disconnection of components......oh, and of course because they cant fix it they will push there luck for a trade discount!

 

However, the people i feel for are those customers that come to me having already paid out for a diagnostic check at an indi and not got a diagnosis (its not just dealers that charge for diagnostics).......what gets me is how they have the nerve to charge for something they havent done.

 

Now moving on, i think i'll go stand at the end of the road and see if i can find a taxi going back to the train station...after all if he's already going that way i should get a lift for nothing....infact he should be grateful for the company !

[smokescreen]

Nice one KFK - well stated.

[techbod]

so its a dealers site and only answer to that is if you have a problem and you want free advice this is not the site for you to get it kfks last answer is also typical of a dealer as its sarcastic to say the least as others who agree with him,I don't want to be a part of a site run by greedy dealers so "up yours" and im off to find a site that really helps people :(

[coastline taxis]

so its a dealers site and only answer to that is if you have a problem and you want free advice this is not the site for you to get it kfks last answer is also typical of a dealer as its sarcastic to say the least as others who agree with him,I don't want to be a part of a site run by greedy dealers so "up yours" and im off to find a site that really helps people :(

Now now techbod you have stated that its "only a debate and nothing personal" so dont be going of on one. Advice is given out freely on this site and we all no that. also the fact that 2 of the members work in a dealership. does that not mean that if they give advice out on here then are you not getting main dealer advice for free in a roundabout way,

Once my cars are paid for i certinly dont lower my prices nor does our local chippy once hes paid of his loan to buy the fish fryers so y should a main dealer do it once the tools are paid for.

Now with regards to what kfk has stated about the indies. basicly the guy is telling the truth in my opinion as that is exactly what we do and we have admited it on here a few times that when we are stuck we use the main dealers and to be honest we just cant fault them and find them to be very reasonable in there prices. In your opinion they rob people and dont know what there doing. granted youve probally had more dealings wth main dealers than i have but all im saying is that ive never experienced anything like that if fact ive been given sound advice over the phone (nigel at tcc) free of charge even when they know that they wont be getting work running into hundreds of pound of me.

God knows that this country hasnt got much going for it at present and everybody is struggling to make a living. But what we do have is freedom of speech and choice and as grown up people we should be able to disagree with each other and have our own opinions

[techbod]

well since you put it like that it does make me feel like a prat but I don't like dealers and they do rip people off, my appols to any one who is not a dealer

 

time to have some quality time I think :(

[kfk]

As far as this site being run by Main Dealers, that couldnt be further from the truth. I think you will find others have contributed to a greater extent and that information is invaluable, my own input to the site has been lacking recently, with the exception of popping in and reading the threads, mainly due to concentrating on work commitments. :(

 

A forum is a place where all can give the experience / knowledge freely to the benefit of others, it isnt dependent on age, sexual preference, colour of skin, disability, or to my knowledge working for a Main Dealer. :(

 

A Main Dealer on the other hand only supplies coffee freely and the customers complain its too strong ;)

 

Now can we all go have a virtual pint of whatever, (dont want to offend the non drinkers). and agree to dissagree :ph34r:

[mlkey]

This thread has become, just too funny :(

 

The simple truth of the matter is this... In every trade through the walks of life, there are good and bad examples. Good plumbers, and bad plumbers. Good chip shops and bad. The motor industry is no exception.

 

And the solution is equally simple... if you live near a bad main dealer and it is keeping you awake at night worrying about it, you should consider moving house to an area where there is a good dealer. Be careful though, you may not get a good estate agent!

 

:ph34r:

[Randombloke]

The simple truth of the matter is this... In every trade through the walks of life, there are good and bad examples. Good plumbers, and bad plumbers. Good chip shops and bad. The motor industry is no exception.

 

I support my local indy because he has been fantastic to me. Free advice over the phone to fix a jammed sunroof, for example. They guided me over the phone, for no charge. I sorted it in 10 minutes.

 

I had dealings with two main dealers, and the experience with Bollingmores (Twickenham) was also very good. I bought a car from them and only distance stopped me using them.

 

Your quote above is superb. Avoid the bad guys, support the good ones. If they are bad, tell them. If they are good, tell your friends......

 

Can I also say I'm grateful to kfk and iannez for advice, also free.

 

Let's be chilling, now........

[ando7p]

Lol. Interesting reading all of this. What is clear is how different industries are driven (no pun intended). In my industry I have little choice but to absorb costs and not pass them on as far as possible. Due to competetion I have to look to reduce costs around 10% year on year (impossible task and the workforce ends up suffering the most).

 

At the end of the day for me, it comes down to cost / quality. I don't mind paying more for a good service, as opposed to paying less for a poor service. The quality and costs across the automotive industry vary widely with no real reason why.

 

An indi will always have more flexibility to change prices as they do not have to worry about franchise as much, etc., but to have such varying standards and costs across dealerships is, in my opinion, a major no-no.

 

I am nothing more than a DIY mechanic and greatly appreciate the help in these forums. I will not tackle larger jobs for several reasons. I am not a mechanic. I can't be bothered to get filthy all the time repairing the car. I can afford to pay someone to do the work, so have the luxury of choice.

 

That said, I did the cam belt, water pump, rocker gasket and oil change on my lads Corsa (cough, spit on floor!) this weekend and took far too long over doing it!!

 

Peace to all, dealers, indis and DIYers alike!

[lawser]

Lol. Interesting reading all of this. What is clear is how different industries are driven (no pun intended). In my industry I have little choice but to absorb costs and not pass them on as far as possible. Due to competetion I have to look to reduce costs around 10% year on year (impossible task and the workforce ends up suffering the most).

 

At the end of the day for me, it comes down to cost / quality. I don't mind paying more for a good service, as opposed to paying less for a poor service. The quality and costs across the automotive industry vary widely with no real reason why.

 

An indi will always have more flexibility to change prices as they do not have to worry about franchise as much, etc., but to have such varying standards and costs across dealerships is, in my opinion, a major no-no.

 

I am nothing more than a DIY mechanic and greatly appreciate the help in these forums. I will not tackle larger jobs for several reasons. I am not a mechanic. I can't be bothered to get filthy all the time repairing the car. I can afford to pay someone to do the work, so have the luxury of choice.

 

That said, I did the cam belt, water pump, rocker gasket and oil change on my lads Corsa (cough, spit on floor!) this weekend and took far too long over doing it!!

 

Peace to all, dealers, indis and DIYers alike!

 

 

Well folks to get back to my original quote which started this debate, i have just been phoned by Citroen, Aberdeen and quoted another £250 on top of everything else for a new coil pack, spark plugs, labour and wait for it......Yes diagnostics yet again, wait a minute did i not just pay for diagnostics last month !

And that's still not guaranteed to sort my problems.....unfortunately i feel that i have had the misfortune of dealing with both Dealer & Indie that don't have a clue and if i now go ahead with this i am now in the space of 1 month the guts of £2000 out of pocket with a car that simply needs to die ! ;)

[techbod]

the problem with the DI cassette is fitting inapropriot items DI meaning direct ignition ( petrol engines ) not sure about diesel but fitting the incorrect spark plugs/hpi engine or diesel glow plugs will result in the DI unit being over voltage and burn out.

 

just bought a Saab 2.3t as a daily drive awesome motor and leaves the ls400 for dead apart from fuel consumption ;)

 

im thinking the 450 lexus

[coastline taxis]

the problem with the DI cassette is fitting inapropriot items DI meaning direct ignition ( petrol engines ) not sure about diesel but fitting the incorrect spark plugs/hpi engine or diesel glow plugs will result in the DI unit being over voltage and burn out.

 

just bought a Saab 2.3t as a daily drive awesome motor and leaves the ls400 for dead apart from fuel consumption ;)

 

im thinking the 450 lexus

Whats was the original fault. And youd be better off driving down to town center citroen and book yourself into a b and b for a couple of days. Then youl have a break and know that your cars in good hands that arnt going to rip you off( cue techbod and another 4 pages of argueing ha ha).

[lawser]

Whats was the original fault. And youd be better off driving down to town center citroen and book yourself into a b and b for a couple of days. Then youl have a break and know that your cars in good hands that arnt going to rip you off( cue techbod and another 4 pages of argueing ha ha).

 

 

Yeah and have a good night out as well !

Originally put the car in for a service with my local indie, was told it needed a camshaft dephaser, so got that fixed and serviced and the car has run crap since.

After much trips back and forth between me and the garage they held their hands up, admitted defeat and recommended going to the local Citroen dealership !

So £500 quid later i'm off to Citroen Aberdeen, one diagnostics later i'm told i need a new fuel pump, ( Now in fairness to my local garage they rekond that it may indeed be the fuel pump, but they would have had to charge me even if it turned out not to be )between labour, diagnostics and fuel pump i'm now another £700 quid lighter......but safe in the knowledge that the car is now fixed......Ahh isn't ignorance bliss !

Anyway 3 weeks later the car feels a bit hesitant on acceleration again, service light back on esp fault light, the famous anti pollution warning also and on the kangaroo petrol once again when accelerating.

Books the car in again and i point out the previous months bill and diagnostics to be reassured that i wouldn't pay for diagnostics again.......( I must have mug painted on my forehead ) Anyway 2 days later and Citroen in their infinite wisdom have now decided that it could be one of 2 things....A) The coil pack & Spark plugs or :P The Catylitic converter......"But it would be cheaper to just change the spark plugs and Coil so i should go for that first but here's the catch.....It might still be the Cat"......I'll leave you to guess what my reply was ! And the sting in the tail, apparently because the fault codes are different i still have to pay the £120 quid for yes you guessed it diagnostics !

So in total for plugs, labour, coil pack and diagnostics another £400 quid....Unfortunately for me i've had enough and purely because of the totally abysmal after sales care from Citroen I will never buy another...... ;)

[techbod]

Whats was the original fault. And youd be better off driving down to town center citroen and book yourself into a b and b for a couple of days. Then youl have a break and know that your cars in good hands that arnt going to rip you off( cue techbod and another 4 pages of argueing ha ha).

 

good fun though lol when you get to my age there's not much else to do :P I don't see it as arguing more debating and its a good way of letting your hair down :( if I had some ;)