Sombody Please Tell Me I Havent Just Bought A Pup!

[UVG]

Hi All

 

will some one please tell me I haven't just bought a pup!!

 

I've just bought a 55 plate 1.6hdi C5 estate as a replacement for my beloved 2.5 VSX XM

 

I've had it less than a week I bought it from a second hand car dealer that is over 150 miles away.

 

it drives really nice but every now and again it misfires just for a second. This morning when I started it I got a slight squeal like a belt slipping (haven't had time to check on that yet.) Then on my way to work this morning whilst accelerating up hill I got a Depollution System Faulty warning and an engine light on the dash.

 

cars done about 115000 miles and came with a full service history it still drives just the same but now having spent an evening reading through the forum I'm horrified at what I might have bought. I didn't realise that so much had changed in the car market over the years I've been driving the XM. 

 

My XM I put diesel, oil and water in it when it broke I used spanners and screwdrivers to fix it and once fixed I just drove it. Now I'm finding that my new car might have a "magic" oil hiding in the fuel tank and filters in the exhaust! who thought of that? I also find that to fix things now need a lap top and a clever connection lead that shouldn't be made in china because that may fry things. what the hell happened to suck - squeeze - bang - blow ? 

 

OK that feels better...rant over!

 

serious question though I obviously have been left behind in the stone age my XM had a mechanical fuel pump and was relatively easy thing to maintain. now I need to learn a whole new way of doing things.

 

The symptoms I described are my problem and I don't know how good or bad that might be my finances are tight so had planned to maintain the new C5 myself hadn't expected such a steep learning curve and certainly not so soon. so can anybody offer some advice what do I need to buy in the way of code readers? of would going for a lexica be the better bet and if so from where? 

 

any information greatly received

 

many thanks UVG

[Johndouglas]

Welcome to the brave, new world of motoring.   I know how you feel, having myself been brought up on early Transit, Pug504, BX and Xantia diesels.   As far as the 'magic oil' behind the fuel tank goes, that's the Eolys fluid which helps the particle filter to work.   But as a last resort, the filter and the ECU programme that makes it work can safely be removed from your car so it's no more bother.   If you Google "FAP removal", you'll maybe find it can be done fairly locally.     Meanwhile Coastline will be along shortly and he'll be able to advise.

[paul.h]

The start up squeal could well be the auxiliary drive belt doing the alternator, air con compressor and power steering pump. Check it for cracks, etc. If you replace it I would also do the tensioner and idler pulleys. This is covered in the Haynes manual which is worth buying. Maybe check the battery voltage in case it is down a bit having been stood at the dealers for some time, although a 150 mile drive back should have charged it.

 

According to Haynes, the eolys fluid should be checked every 75k miles and the particulate filter replaced at 62500 miles on the 1.6 hdi but in the service book with my car is has top up eolys fluid at 75k miles and replace the filter at 87500 miles for the C5 1.6 hdi - so these should have been done previously. Coastline may recommend to give the engine a thrashing to clear out some of the soot - high revs for a few miles.

 

It may be due a diesel fuel filter change, at 37500 intervals. Worth checking what has been serviced in the records.

Timing belt is 150k miles (120k miles severe conditions) or 10 years so probably not quite due yet but if a cover can be removed it is worth a check.

[coastline taxis]

No you havnt bought a pup. What youve bought is a pig coz its got a 1.6 hdi engine that is just so underpowered to pull a c5. Do yourself a favour and sell it on and get a 2 litre. But if your commited to keeping it then  youve come to the right place and well give you all the help you need.

 Are you any good with computers as we have software that you can run without lexia and defap the car yourself.

What part of the country are you in.

Your first priority is to do the timming belt as ive seen loads of them snap between once there over the 100k.

Make sure you do regular oil changes and always use the correct oil (low ash) or it will eat the turbos.

[UVG]

Thanks for the advice

 

I've had a look on google and there are a couple of places locally that will do the FAP removal (cannot help wondering what the insurance companies will think of the modification) but not cheap

 

once I get my Haynes manual I plan on doing an oil, filter and belt change. I need to check the history to see if the eolys been done.

 

are 1.6 really that bad? because it seemed to fit the bill, was available at the right time and at the right price so I bought it. cleaned me out financial so the idea of selling it on to buy a 2.0 with the loss involved might be a non starter. so looks like I'm stuck with it. I was very happy with it when I first bought it so I'm a little (ok a lot) worried now after what I've read on here (has anybody got one they are happy with?)

 

I'm in Hartlepool on the NE coast I've been messing with computers since the ZX81 so am reasonably confident with one and if I get stuck I have a good friend who is a computer whizz who will help me. Have read the comments about oil and turbos on here so was planning to do an engine flush and a good quality oil (any recommendations)

 

the Depollution fault appears to have cleared its self (for the moment but I bet I haven't seen the last of it) the misfire is getting worse not more often just more violent. would definitely be interested in keeping the option of defaping the car myself open and if there is a way to communicate with the ECUs without having to lay out a fortune that's something else I have a feeling I will need

 

keep the advice coming think I'm going to need it

 

UVG

[coastline taxis]

You can defap your car for les than £30 plus a bit sweat to get the fap of the car. The misfire could be anything and would need a few tools to trace it properly. And we are up in south shields so a quick blast up the A19 will get you as many plug ins as you like.

Now back to the misfire do you get any lights on the dash when its happening. also make sure you use a good diesel and not the supermarket diesel as its full of silicone and the engine sensors hate it

[UVG]

I thought you must be local to me because I was sure id read some advice you had given someone about using TCC (which is where my car originally came from) I do usually use supermarket diesel because its a bit cheaper but to be honest I put £50 in on the motorway after I had bought it and I think it was BP and I haven't put any more in yet.

 

I haven't noticed any lights when it happens but there is no warning and it happens so quick I don't have time to look. I've only had the car a week and it hasn't happened enough times yet for me to build up a set of symptoms I'm hoping over time I will be able to say "it happens after I change gear" or "when I accelerate" or "at around xxxx revs" which might help pin it down. 

 

as to defaping I've read a bit about remapping the ECU when you do this. Is this necessary or just preferable and if so is this something I can do as well? bit worried about changing the software on the car and not been able to change it back if there is an issue.

 

thanks for the help its nice to know someone has the answers and has done this all before

 

UVG

[Johndouglas]

Yes - knocking the filter out, then doing the ECU are both necessary.   If you don't, the ECU doesn't know not to regenerate or squirt in  the eolys.

[Randombloke]

I defer to Coastline here, we all do, but I am going to guess that the misfire is a crank or cam position sensor. However, you will usually get an error message from those. If no message it could be fuel, so time for at least one tank of non supermarket fuel as Coastline says.

 

I bought a basic Autel diag handset to check for basic faults. It only covers engine, is not good with manufacturer specific codes but is OK.

 

They seem to be easy to sell on so maybe try one of those. My local indy has not seen the problems that Coastline has with 1.6HDi but then they do have the high mileage ones on their books, and the majority are 2.0, which is, IMV in last gen C5 at 138 bhp is well sorted.

 

You could try a DPF regen by driving at a constant-ish speed on an open road. I can't remember the details but at certain speeds with engine warm the system will try to regenerate the DPF before it gets blocked.

[UVG]

thought I'd found a set of symptoms that cause the misfire this morning I had to back off the power when I thought someone was going to pull out in front of me they didn't and I went straight back on the power but as I did the car misfired quite violently and then carried on running fine.

 

when I thought about it there was a similar set of circumstances last night to so a bit further down the road I deliberately came of the power and went straight back on the car didn't misfire but the depollution fault came back!!!

 

then this evening on my way home driving down the A19 no change in power and it misfires again but before it did it did feel like it was faltering just a bit. like it was struggling to give me the power I wanted and then after the misfire it was fine. as it the timing was slightly out and it needed the misfire to correct itself. 

 

my Haynes manual arrived today so I'm going to try and get all the bits together to do an oil and filter change at the weekend (weather permitting) and i'll have a good look for any split or damaged tubing and wiring any suggestions as to where to look and what to look for greatly received

 

coastline when you say I'll need a few tools to trace it properly what kind of tools are we talking about? because the misfire is now a bigger worry than the depollution fault and I am wondering if the 2 are related

 

Cheers UVG

[coastline taxis]

this is only a guess mind but i think your misfire could be a fuel supply problem as in lack of fuel getting to the injectors. Im assuming it hasnt been serviced recently.. The fuel filter for a 1.6 are around the £40 mark and only get changed once a year so you could be running around with a filter that could be up to 2 years old. so start by giving it a fuel filter change. As you look at the engine just to the right of the air filter theres a black squarish plastic box its a sealed unit so you have to replace the whole unit. Theres a couple of push fit pipes and it just pulls out with the help of 4 chinesse men with small hands.

What you really need is to take the car for a drive while plugged in so you can go to live data and see what the engine is doing as its working.

Next would be a leak of test on the injectors.

Does it start 1st time in the morning or do you have to crank it a bit

[UVG]

Yes it starts first time every time no cranking at all

 

I've bought good oil and filters this morning but due to weather and children's social lives (at least they have one) I haven't been able to change the filters tonight. I'll try and get them sorted over the weekend.

 

I am now convinced the misfire and the depollution fault are related it misfired to night on the way home and the engine warning light went off and so has the depollution fault.

 

I've got some engine flush so I'm going to do a flush and oil and filter change and then fill the tank (with shell diesel) then take it for a drive to try and get things to regenerate

 

I'll post the results (good or bad) once I have any

 

Coastline I am still interested on how to connect the car to the computer so I can see what's going on and how to do the DIY defap etc if you could guide me in the right direction for the info I need I would be grateful

 

cheers UVG aka Kev

[coastline taxis]

ok here we go a quick walkthrough

Go on ebay and buy a galleto lead £20 to £30

Go on line and download ecusafe

Configure galleto lead to the laptop

Plug in a galleto lead  (lift up your center armrest/storage box and youl see a 16 pin diagnostic port)

Copy contents of your ecu and save on your laptop do not use this copy for anything this is incase you make a mistake then you have it to reinstal.

Now go back into the ecu and follow the instructions for ecusafe then untick fap/depolution system come out of the ecu and close it down

remove the front part of the exhaust just under the manifols open it up and smash the honycombs all the way through removing as much as you can

Reasemble the exhaust

JOB DONE

 

If you follow the instructions on ecusafe you wont go wrong

[paul.h]

Brilliant write up and does not sound too hard, I will try it on our C5 when it needs the filter replacing. Do you leave the eolys system in place and can this also work on other Citroens ?

 

(lift up your center armrest/storage box and youl see a 16 pin diagnostic port) - is this for the latest C5 tourer/saloon ?

Do not the models up to 2008 have the diagnostic socket in the passenger glove box at the side of the fusebox (pull off the cover) ?

[coastline taxis]

And your quite right paul the obd port is in the glove box. for some reason i thought it was 2009 we were talking about ha ha.

All other info is correct though

 

And this method is basicly the same on most cars. you just leave the eloys system the way it is.

At the moment you can download ecusafe free but ive no doubt that when it becomes popular there will be a charge for it

[Bobster]

I've had a look on google and there are a couple of places locally that will do the FAP removal (cannot help wondering what the insurance companies will think of the modification) but not cheap

 

 

Hi,

 

You are right to consider the insurance aspect. Insurers can and do void policies if vehicles are modified without their approval and you usually discover this after you have made a claim. If they void your policy and have to pay out for Third Party damage, they can seek redress from you.

 

I was considering removing the FAP last year and wrote to my insurers to explain the problems the FAP/Eolys system was giving and to say I had asked my MOT station who advised that on my car (C5 2.2 HDi 2003) the removal would not affect the MOT. I also stressed that the ECU would not be remapped and after their underwriters and engineers had considered it, they wrote back to say that there would be no increase in premium if I did this as long as the car remained roadworthy. I am not sure if this would be true of later vehicles though.

 

In my case, I had a forced regeneration done and since then I have had more power and better mpg. Just recently, I tried Miller Oil's diesel additive which cleans the injectors, adds 4 cetane units and provides more power and mpg and I am currently getting 50 mpg (my average mpg over 30,000+ miles is 44.8 but before the forced regen, I was struggling to get 42).

 

The C5 though is a great car, I love mine and really do not know what I shall replace it with.

 

Happy C5ing,

 

Bob H.

 

 

 

PS. Moderator edit by removing reply from quote box.

[UVG]

Ok so its been an interesting weekend

 

I've done a service. I've flushed the engine and replaced the oil (used correct quality oil) and oil filter, air and fuel filter. I've been on a 40 mile drive at 50mph to try and force a regeneration don't know if it worked.

 

I've also checked the oil supply to the turbo and it appears to be getting about 2/3 more oil than the specs say it should be so hopefully the oil ways are not blocked with carbon and as long as I maintain things properly it will stay that way...well heres hoping

 

but I still have the miss fire and the depollution fault still comes and goes.

 

there is oil around the injectors (which the seller explained away as a spill during the service (could be true) one of the injectors appears to have a diesel leak but couldn't figure out where it was coming from and with the bonnet open the engine sounds like a fast steam engine a definite sort of hissing sound coming from the head. I don't know if this is normal as I've never had a common rail engine before. (anyone give me a clue on that)

 

I've also managed to borrow a code reader and found the following codes already stored P0238, P1461, P1351, P0104, P0113 I cleared these before I took the car for a drive to try and regenerate during that drive the depollution fault reoccurred when I got back I read the codes again and got P0238, P1461, P1351 I cleared these and the next morning when I started the car the fault was gone during that drive the car didn't misfire. today I got the misfire again so I've read the codes again P1351, P1461, P1351, P1461 this is my first time using a code reader so I have looked up a list of codes online and they say things like: P0238 Turbo/Superboost sensor A circuit high input or P0113 IAT sensor 1 (circuit high input) but I have no idea how this relates to what needs looking at on the car. any and all advise gratefully received.

 

Coastline recommended down loading ECUsafe but when I did my antivirus software went into overdrive can anyone offer a link as to where to download it safely and also what version is best does it read codes as well or just reprogram the ECU?

 

if I can get the misfire cured I'll be very happy with the car. I can live with the depollution fault as it doesn't affect the way the car runs and if it becomes a real pain I'll DeFAP it once I've got all the gear together

 

thanks for your advise

 

UVG

[paul.h]

If your code reader does live data see what the IAT - inlet air temperature is showing. It should be about 20°C with a cold engine (outside air temp) and then go a bit higher as the engine warms up. If you are getting much more than about 40ish then the MAF (air flow meter) may need a clean or replacing. The P0104 and 0113 codes.

 

Also is the air con working ok and giving a low temperature - the P1461 code ?

 

Does it start ok - P1351 may be a glow plug that needs replacing but in summer will not be a problem (from an internet search).

 

There is a list of fault codes on this forum under the Petrol Diesel & LPG Injection section.

 

P0238 Turbocharger Boost Sensor A Circuit High

P0104 Mass or Volume Air Flow Circuit Intermittent

P0113 Intake Air Temperature Circuit High Input

P1351 IDM Input Circuit Malfunction/ Ignition Coil Control Circuit High Voltage

P1461 A/C pressure sensor circuit voltage low

 

Following is from a search on P0238 and this is in the Peugeot forums which may be relevant since you mention a hissing sound and then possibly it could be a loose injector:-

 

Ive had the same problem for some time now.Almost every journey i made to work approx 16 miles away the engine management light came on. But after switching on/off for 4 or 5 times the light would switch off.
I have a peugeot 407 sw on a 56 plate. I first checked the air filter which was ok but when i removed the small engine cover i noticed carbon deposits around one of the injectors. After starting up the engine there was blowing from this injector. After further investigation the injector was loose and after tightning the blowing stopped.
Took car for a run and yes the depollution message came on .Now i was not prepared to take car to peugeot and give them £50 - £60 to tell me the fault codes so bought machine,plugged it in and found code P0238 cleared code and has not returned.

[coastline taxis]

What code reader are you using as they don't all use the same format

[UVG]

the code reader is a MaxScan Vag Autel that's all the info there is on it and I don't know if it does live data I've borrowed it from a neighbour so don't have the instructions (I'll try looking them up when I get in tonight neighbour is on nights so cannot ask him till the weekend)

 

I've always been wary of messing with injectors but it does sound like its hissing from one of them but I would have thought it would have been a faster sound. there is a diesel service centre round the corner from my work that has a good reputation I might run in there and ask them to check it over. only prob been shortage of funds after buying the car in the first place :unsure:  

[paul.h]

What warranty did the dealer give with the car ? It may be more cost effective to have it seen to under warranty before you start doing any work yourself which could invalidate the warranty. Would the dealer/warranty allow work to be done elsewhere and then still pay ?

 

If you can not or do not want to use the warranty, a trip to coastline taxis in South Shields may be worth considering, about 60 miles round trip. Then you have somebody who knows about C5s as well as diesels.

 

If the code reader is the Autel MaxiScan VAG 405, a look at its manual on line shows it does not do live data.

 

The injector nuts should be torqued to 4Nm + 65°, so if there is a loose one, it may just need nipping up or a new seal. Looking in the Haynes manual, some parts seem to need removing to access the injectors and the nuts need an allen bit.

[coastline taxis]

get a cheap bottle of washing up liquid and add some water to it, then just squirt it all round the injectors if you've got a leak itl froth and foam.

[UVG]

quick update before I creep of to bed

 

I've taken the car into the local diesel specialist and it has what he calls a "Chuffing Injector" the second injector is leaking causing a black deposit around it and the manifold (its like pitch or tar black and shinny but not really sticky) specialist is quoting from £60 upwards depending on weather he can get the injector out and weather anything is damaged in the process could run to hundreds if things get tricky :unsure:  :(

 

my nice new motor is booked in next Wednesday but I have also emailed the garage where I bought it (160 miles away) to see if it would be covered by the 3 month warranty (not going to hold my breath)

 

so if any one has a spare minute to offer a pray to the Citroen god it will be greatly appreciated!!

 

I'll let you all know the out come next week

 

P.S. anyone got a link for ECUsafe? have a feeling I'm going to want it in the future.

[UVG]

Coastline I should have thought of that its how I used to check for gas leaks (safer than a lighter) :blink: haven't had time yet but its defiantly hissing

 

I got a response from the garage the next morning his 3month warranty covers repairs at his local mechanics to a total of £200 but he suggested that because I was so far away (320mile round trip) he would be happy to pay the first £200 to my local specialist.

 

the local specialist have recommended getting the other 3 injectors re seated as well based on the idea that if ones gone the others wont be far behind seems reasonable but not sure if really necessary. your opinions please.....

 

haven't had a repeat of the depollution fault so wondering if my run out at the weekend made a difference.

[paul.h]

Before your specialist does anything, it is probably worthwhile getting him to speak to the garage to agree on the payment details. I am guessing this is probably different to a purchased warranty where the cost of proving the fault is with the owner before the warranty company will agree to pay anything.

 

Not sure about doing the other 3 injectors, depends on the extra cost but if minimal is probably worth doing. However, need to ask, what if one injector is stuck and needs expensive surgery to remove.