Hill Start Assist

[AlandeRanulf]

I have a new (March 2014) C4 Grand Picasso Exclusive with ESG on which the hill start assist seems not to work. It has occasionally held the car on a slope, but doesn't do it consistently. The dealership span me a yarn about it only being supposed to work "sometimes" and something called "creep" does the job at other times. I seems always to roll back (not far, but enough to make driving uncomfortable) and for me the assist is clearly not working. I had the previous model for three years and it worked perfectly. All comments/suggestions welcome.

[coastline taxis]

http://www.citroclub.com/cicont-463.html

 

 

Sounds like the dealer could be right

[pureity]

I have exactly the same issue, brand new C4 Picasso (5 seater) 1/3/14. The issue is only apparent when the engine shuts down with foot on the break and at a complete stop. On the level when releasing the break, the engine starts and away you go. However, if you are on an incline on releasing the break, the engine starts but the vehicle rolls back, which could be up to a foot or more depending on the incline, before the engine holds the vehicle. This is quite dangerous, especially if a car is behind you and too close, you stand the chance of hitting it.

 

I have been back to the dealers about this problem several times. The first time I was told the car has to learn how you drive and will adjust to your driving style. What a load of rubbish! So when my wife drives, it has to start learning all over again. Then when I drive after her, it has to start learning again. Complete and utter tosh! I went back again, this time the salesman and the manager both drove the car and witnessed the issue and agreed that it wasn't right. The car was booked in so they could investigate the issue. That day the main mechanic looked at the issue, took me out for a drive to demonstrate how the Hill Start Assist works. His demonstration showed that the car would roll back when releasing the break when the engine was in Eco mode, until the car had learnt the environment, then Hill Start Assist would work. Learning the environment took quite some time. His explanation of how Hill Start Assist works was that the system uses the ABS system to hold the breaks on for 2 seconds, But for the ABS system to work the engine needs to be running. So there is a brief period when the ABS doesn't hold the brakes on during the time the engine starts and ABS kicks in. This is surely a bad design issue and an unsafe issue.

 

Clearly, the car is virtually run by computers. The simple solution to the dangerous problems would be for the computer to detect the car was stationary, the foot break was depressed and the engine had stopped under ECO mode, then apply the electronic Hand Break. Simple! Then when the foot break is released, the car is held by the Hand Break, the engine starts, accelerate, Hand Break comes off and away you go. No more dangerous rolling back!

 

I have got into the habit of manually applying the Hand Break when on an incline when a car is behind. The problem is very unnerving. My wife is very reluctant to drive the car because of this issue.

 

Remember your driving test, when at a junction and stopped, ''apply your Hand Break!' So you don't roll back and hit the car behind!

[C 5 Estate]

Are you able to disable this facility.

 

Should you appear in Court for running back and trapping a pedestrian who walked between you and a following traffic on an incline, the Judge may not accept a plea of Insanity due to being a Citroen owner. (ment in jest)

 

Tim

[AlandeRanulf]

Thanks for replying. I think I understand now why it isn't working (ABS and all that). I don't much like the car "learning the environment" explanation - it doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps there is more to it. My analysis is that it is a poorly designed (improved?) system which does not do what the driver expects of it, and that is a real shame.

 

I have begun to train myself to use the handbrake more, something which I did not have to do very often in the previous model that I had.

 

Initially I thought that the system had been disabled, but it clearly says in the book that it cannot be disabled.

 

I agree that reliance on hill start assist which isn't working as one would expect, and hope for, (or insanity) would not hold up in court.

 

I wonder if there is a way to feedback directly to Citroen and let the company know that I feel that in this respect the new model is less good than the earlier one. Any suggestions of who to contact?

 

Thanks all,

 

Alan

[C 5 Estate]

Perhaps a word with Radio 4's You and Yours programme or ask the AA/RAC for an opinion may help.

 

Tim

[paul.h]

Welcome to the forum pureity.

 

Citroen have a customer service department but people on here who have contacted them over car problems do not seem to get anywhere, but worth a try. Citroen contact info from the Citroen UK website http://www.citroen.co.uk/home/#/contact-us/general-enquiries/contact-citroen/

 and a contact form from that page http://info.citroen.co.uk/contact-us/general-enquiries/contact-form/ On the phone contact nos. for new cars info its a free 0800 no. but for other things a high cost 0844 no. It is always worth trying for free nos on the saynoto0870 site http://www.saynoto0870.com/

[pureity]

Thanks for the welcome to this forum.

 

My dealer has spoken to Citroen about the issue. Their response was, it is working as designed! If this is the case, the design needs to be re-visited and improved.

 

Is there not a road safety body in the UK that could take up this issue with Citroen?

[AlandeRanulf]

Thanks for all of this. I think that Citroen need to be told that the design is not really fit for purpose, i.e. a mistake has been made.

 

I e-mailed customer services (not really expecting any real help) but have yet to receive a reply. If the reply is worth repeating I'll post it here.

 

All the best,

 

Alan

[Johndouglas]

Is there not a road safety body in the UK that could take up this issue with Citroen?

There is - although I can't say how effective it is. If you go to the VOSA website you'll find on there a downloadable form headed Vehicle Safety Defect Report................. If you decide to use it, come back and tell us the result.

 

 

 

PS. All you need to do to find it is to put VEHICLE SAFETY DEFECT REPORT into Google.

[paul.h]

I had a look in the latest handbook for the car on the service.citroen site. I am not sure if I would want an electronic handbrake, it says if the battery is not working or low charge the handbrake may not work and if it is very cold it should not be left on in case it freezes - in these cases it suggests using a wheel chock to secure the car and leaving it in gear (normal practice anyway).

[john h]

Drop a line to Watchdog, it does sound to be an issue that needs addressing urgently

[coastline taxis]

https://www.facebook.com/Citroen?ref=ts&fref=ts    

 

this is citroen facebook page. put your questions on there as they seem to answer them. could be because everyone can see

[pureity]

I will put a post on their facebook page and will report back with any answers.

[AlandeRanulf]

Thank you. I was hoping that somebody would say that as I haven't sorted out being on Facebook!

 

Alan

[pureity]

Here is an update following posting a message on the Citroen Facebook Page.

 

They have requested the Vin No. and Point of Purchase so they can raise it with customer service. At least they got back to me. I will keep you posted on developments.

 

Paul.

[pureity]

Here is the Citroen response to my Facebook posting:

 

Thanks for getting in touch with us via Facebook in France. As you're a UK based customer, I've been asked to respond to the concern you've raised with the hill start function on your Citroën C4 Picasso.

The assisted hill start function is designed to help you in the event of a hill start and isn't a fail-safe piece of equipment to be solely relied upon. As a result it kicks in where you’d normally have to use the handbrake to stop from rolling back.

The incline will need to be at a certain degree for this to kick in automatically and on slight inclines it won't. I take your comments on board that this doesn’t kick in when you expect it to. But, bear in mind that if the hill start function activated every time you stopped, the slight pause as the brakes disengaged when you pull off would get very annoying. If you feel the vehicle may roll back and the hill assist won't come into play, please use the manual handbrake.

The only piece of advice I can offer in using the function is to ensure you come to a complete stop with your foot on the brake to activate it, rather than simply rolling to a stop. If this still concerns you the ECO function can be easily disabled in the vehicle settings screen.

As we take all customer feedback seriously, I've passed your comments onto out product development team.

I hope with this further explanation and the fact the dealer hasn't found a fault with your vehicle, you have the peace of mind that your vehicles operating as it should be.

Thanks again for bringing this matter to our attention.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'll just have to use the hand break!

 

Paul.

[AlandeRanulf]

I find this response very unsatisfying. In the C4 Grand Picasso that I have just traded in the system worked faultlessly on every occasion. It didn't have the ECO business clouding the issue, but all the same I am disappointed with the way things are now on my newer, improved model. The "Product Development Team" should apply themselves to developing this aspect of their product so that it works in a more satisfactory way I think.

 

Thanks for pursuing this Paul.

 

Alan

[pureity]

Alan,

 

You are absolutely right.

 

You need to do as I have done and anyone else who have this issue and post a comment on their Facebook page. The more that complain, the better chance of getting the issue fixed.

 

Now that I have got a name at Citroen I thought I would ask another question that was bothering me. I will open another post regarding Automatic Headlight Dip.

 

Paul.

[AlandeRanulf]

Paul,

 

Is there anyway of me contacting the "name" at Citroen without using Facebook? Do you have an e-mail address for example? What is the name, by the way?

 

Alan

[pureity]

Alan,

 

The contact I have is Gurjit Chinji, Customer Support Manager, Tel 0844 463 3500, email: cuk_contactcentre@citroen.com

 

Paul.

[paul.h]

Which country is the contact centre located - India ? - and do they have Citroens there so the contact may understand the problem ? There is a Coventry address on their website but that does not necessarily mean the centre is located there.

[pureity]

No idea which country he is in, but can understand the India suggestion.

 

Tonight I sent him a suggestion. Thinking about the issue, the problem is the uncertainty of whether Hill Start Assist has been activated (i.e. going to Hold the vehicle), depending on the incline, Eco and brake pedal depressed. My idea is to have an indication on the dashboard if the system has been activated. So if you find yourself on an incline, stopped, engine off or not, if the indicator is showing, you know you are safe from roll back, if not and you are worried, you apply the hand break. I'm sure this isn't too hard to program into the system and be issued as a software update.

 

I believe Mercedes show 'Hold' on the dash when their Hill Start Assist had been activated.

 

Paul.

[pureity]

Here is an update to my suggestion to Citroen.

 

They have acknowledged it as a fair point and have passed it on to the development team. Whether they will implement it is any bodies guess.

 

Paul.

[AlandeRanulf]

Thanks for the updates. I will use the e-mail contact to say similar things. The indicator is a fair suggestion but I would prefer the system just to always cut in if the car comes to a standstill on even the slightest incline.

 

I have taken to always using the handbrake - as we should perhaps (mentioned above I think). I'm sure that I will simply end up having trained myself to do this as a matter of routine, in which case there is no advantage to having the assist function. At least on my new model the "parking brake" is within very easy reach, no need to stretch for it.

 

Alan