Severe Judder Even After Discs/pads Replaced Twice

[RichCliff]

Hi folks,

 

I became aware of a judder (seemingly from the front) and as the front discs needed replacing, i did just that. The judder went away for a few weeks but came back so i thought perhaps even the new discs were warped slightly (i don't drive or brake hard) so i took it back and the mechanic drove the vehicle and confirmed it sounds/feels like a disc warp. So they replaced both discs at the front under warranty.

Again, perhaps 4-5 weeks after the discs have been replaced for a second time, the shudder/judder is back with a vengeance.

 

It happens mostly when slowing down from high speed, feels like you're going over a rather nasty yellow line feature before a roundabout on a dual carriageway but worse.

 

I have noticed that sometimes it doesn't do it (perhaps when ive set off, the first few braking isn't as bad or don't feel it at all) which leads me to think it's not the discs. 

 

Over rough roads and small holes, i can hear possible noise coming from the front suspension, clunk here and there and a rumble. Over smooth road surfaces, no sound. 

 

I've been told several things from warped discs again to warped hubs and also possible bushes need replacing. 

 

Question, if i was braking from 40-70mph would suspension bush failure lead to very abrupt/severe shaking/juddering similar to a warped disc?

 

On those ground, does anyone have any idea on cost of replacement bushes or even replacement hubs?

 

I have a Citroen C5 Mk1 04 Plate.

[Johndouglas]

Are the callipers moving easily?

[paul.h]

Did the garage check the disc run out before and after replacing them so they knew the discs were the problem ? It is also possible the problem is the rear brakes and is masked when the fronts are done since the fronts will have been greased/freed up and maybe able to compensate for a problem with the rears. It is possible the hubs were not cleaned up fully each time with a file and a slight bit of damage to the hub surface caused the first judder problem and it was again not removed when the discs were replaced so the judder returned a second time.

 

In the Haynes manual is does include worn suspension as a possible cause of brake judder. You could check the front suspension lower arm rear bushes to see if they look perished. However, if it was a suspension problem then surely it would not disappear just after replacing the discs. I vaguely remember caliper guide bolts can cause judder if worn or bent but I do not know if this applies to the C5.

[mhedwig]

Did the mechanic clean the hubs before fitting the new discs

[RichCliff]

Not sure if the Mechanic did those things, It was ATS. Last time i challenged them about the brakes i had a call from the head office getting rather upset and adamant his guys do the job properly. I took it back to them as the brakes were under warranty. 

 

Regarding the suspension, it rumbles/mutters when pulling off from a stop also, and when turning full lock something just isn't right in my eyes, not too sure. Not mechanically car savvy myself and have no drive to check as live on main road.

 

I'll get my timing belt, pulleys, etc done first then try and find and sort out this problem. Sounds like it could be a host of things. 

[Parkesie]

Ive come across a fiat that juddered under braking and after much head scratching it was traced to a inner cv joint being shot. Was fine on acceleration and normal driving but apply the brakes and it just kind of locked up the joint.

[RichCliff]

Thanks for the replies so far. Several times this week, i've had to brake hard and the first initial braking, no judder. Second braking it juddered and did so thereafter. Yesterday i did the usual braking to come to a halt at junctions and no judder, the brakes 'felt' smooth, no lumpy bumpies. Thereafter, juddering when braking at other junctions. 

It's odd....  also it will judder more so at times and then less on other times. I really think it's not the brakes. So might have the CV joints (thanks for the suggestion above) and bushes tested for movement end of the month.

I'm going to be skinted out though, have cam belt, water pump, pulleys, coolant etc replaced at the same time. I suggested pulleys because there is a serious knocking sometimes from within the cambelt cover.

 

This car is a bloody nightmare.

[paul.h]

I would get an idea of the cost to do all these jobs and then see if you can change the car for the same amount. Older C5s do not cost much, if you wanted another one. Our dealer charges about £350 to replace the cam belt/tensioner and about another £100 to also change the water pump and coolant. You might also replace the auxiliary belt at the same time and at least check its pulleys. A possible source of a knocking noise could be the crankshaft pulley, sometimes the rubber insert can break up.

 

A possible knocking noise from the front suspension could be a worn drop link on the anti roll bar but I do not think you would feel this, only hear it.

 

Is the brake judder the same as when the abs kicks in and is felt through the brake pedal ?

[RichCliff]

Cambelt, Pulleys, Water Pump, Coolant etc been quoted for £394 from an independent garage and £381 from a Citroen Garage but without the pulleys. which isn't bad considering someone just now quoted me 750!!

 

I'm starting to really worry about the other problems cost wise now.

The judder feels like its more lower frequency than the ABS kicking in....thats pretty quick juddering where as this is slower.... well, not much slower but its much more pronounced and vibrates the steering wheel so much and the passenger can feel it big time also.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if its a stuck caliper(s).... remember last year i had the handbrake issue which oddly enough went away by itself. I then had the overheating brakes issue.....which was the initial cause of the new discs/pads being fitted.

 

I had new brake discs, new pads and a complete flush out of the brake fluid on every wheel thereafter....and since then two more new discs and pads on the front just a few months after the first lot.

I am leaning towards the caliper issue now which could be hearing up the discs to the point they warp when hot. As when i start off a journey, the first few braking manoeuvres are barely noticeable judder wise, it isn't until i start braking from above 35-40mph that it becomes an issue., Euro Car Parts quotes calipers as £137 each for the front. Obviously not including fitting by the garage. Had an advisory for the rear brake discs in June so that's another £200 for those as well.

 

It's a complete money pit, can't afford another car outright at the moment and i doubt i'd get much for part exchanging this either. Apart from all these problems, it's wonderful to drive on the long distances.....and has never faulted starting or anything (yet).

[paul.h]

A quick look on Autotrader shows you can get a C5 from about £300. It would be tempting on your car to just get the judder sorted if it is a low cost (or go back to ATS since if the judder went for a few weeks after replacing the discs again, surely it points to them being the problem. I can not remember if it juddered before you ever went to ATS.) and then not bother with the cam belt. Then run the car until the belt fails and then get another car. The ECP calipers might be reconditioned ones. If faced with about £400 for the cam belt work, about £300 if you replace the calipers, about £200 for rear discs and pads and then maybe a service, you could be faced with about £1000 this year if you have the work done. Probably better see what else you could get to replace it before committing to the work.

[coastline taxis]

The price for the cambelt is way over the top. gates timing belt kit including new tensioner,w/pump and guides £90. shop around youl get way cheaper.  the vibrating is down to 1 of 2 things (assuming its not the abs kicking in).

 

Front wishbone rear bush.    You can replace both bushes on the wishbone for around £30

Check the knuckles on the the steering rack both were it goes thru the drivers bulkhead and behing the rubber bellows.

 

if when turning a corner you think the front end is feeling like its going to fall of then its a tracking issue but make sure garage checks the suspension/steering parts b4 tracking it up or it will never be right

[RichCliff]

Halfords just quoted me cambelt kit, waterpump and labour at £302.71. He even questioned it himself and with a few hmms and the like said, yeah, we can do the waterpump aswell for the same all in. Rather happy considering the local garage priced me at 394 and another 750!

 

Think i will look at the suspension after i've had the cambelt sorted. Halfords offer a free suspension check so might use that whilst there to see if they find any play or faults with the bushes. There is a definite creaking sound and slight feel through the pedals when i go over slight-rough road surfaces and when pulling away from turning a corner in the suspension. Like a creak then get a rumbling for a moment then goes away when up to speed. Only noticeable over certain surfaces if not up to standard and the odd small pot hole. I did wonder if this was the cause of shaking/juddering with it literally rattling under braking. Will investigate after cam belt and water pump is sorted.

[RichCliff]

Just a quick observation today. I had no judder/vibration for around 15-20mins when braking at various speeds and felt nice and smooth, even my passenger noticed it. I went over a bump due to uneven road surface and right after the judder came back under braking for the rest of the few hours of journey. This surely has to be suspension or atleast under that area where the rumbling noise is coming from. It also doesn't do it half as much when braking going up hill. It does it a hell of a lot when going down hill though under force.

Either that or it is the ABS.... but seems slightly slower in frequency than that when i've had to brake quickly and it kicks in.

Edited March 19, 2016 by RichCliff

[paul.h]

You could do a quick check of the front wish bone rear bushes - these are the ones at the back end of the front lower suspension arms. In a car park raise the suspension to max height, then have a look at the rear end of the arms - the arm shaft should be in the middle but if to one side or the rubber looks perished it indicates the bushes need replacing. This is the bush http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Citroen_C5_1.8_2004/p/car-parts/suspension/suspension-and-steering/suspension-bushes/?610540055&1&740b70469214f037b099c096ce9bc8daaa514bbc&000437

[RichCliff]

After putting the car in for a cambelt/waterpump change yesterday (Halfords Autocentre, Marsh Barton Exeter) the mechanic (which just happened to be a citroen technician) identified a problem when underneath straight away. Right side control arm bushes were shot which is what you described above. Although it can/could cause braking judder he was adamant that the judder was indeed the front brakes. They reckon ATS hadn't cleaned the hubs off.... ATS say they did. I've had the brakes replaced twice under warranty and ATS now say the job was done properly, both times.

Halfords reckon if i bite the bullet and go for a complete change of brakes with them, they'll sort it (of course, i'll be paying them 400 quid for all four).

 

Had ATS on the phone, one of the ones in charge and he was very 'in' with the way they conduct their brake changes, and that everything was done to order.

 

Does anyone know, before i go searching what a control arm/bush replacement plus labour would be (rough estimate)?

[Citroendispatch11]

Brake hoses and lines

[paul.h]

From above the rear bush is about £30 and it is held on with 2 bolts, so it can not cost much to replace. If you did go with Halfords for the brakes, maybe they would change the bush without charging, or at worst just pay for the part since it would already be on a ramp for the brakes. Did they also say if the front bush needed replacing ? Perhaps you could ask for the same mechanic to do the work.

 

An extra thought, it may pay to have the brake/clutch fluid changed again when the brakes are done (again ask for it free or reduced cost) just in case there is any of the old fluid still there that had water in it. Plus it must be about a year since it was last done and 2 years is the normal replacement anyway.

[FridgemagnetC5]

I recently replaced all the front suspension and steering bushes and balljoints on my 2007 C5, and am now recovering from the effort. This was prompted after I got the tracking aligned recently - the garage reported it was way out, and indeed after adjustment the steering was very free and easy driving away from the garage. This happy state of affairs lasted until I reached the first junction in the road and the act of braking shifted the geometry out of whack again. I had a set of control arm bushes, lower balljoints*, drop links and track rod ends that were bought for my previous Mk1 C5 which died before I could fit them, and happily they were the same spec. Unhappily I was completely unable to remove the front control arm bushes so I had to bite the bullet and buy new control arm assemblies that came with bushes pre-fitted**. Given that the control arms themselves are unlikely to fail I assume the only reason there's a market for the arm-with-bushes assembly is that the bushes are a pig to remove.

 

I also changed the brake discs and pads as they were heavily scored, and I have noticed a big change in the ABS characteristics. Previously the ABS threshold was quite low and was characterised by rapid BANG! BANG! BANG!s that could be felt through the brake pedal. Now the threshold is much higher, and tests on a gravel track and an empty bit of wet road indicate that the interval between ABS releases is longer and I can no longer feel it through the pedal. I did have a bit of a fright though: while the car was up on blocks I had to run the engine to alter the suspension height, and an ABS sensor was dangling off while I did this. When the job was done I drove the car off for the first time and there was a horrible grinding noise coming from the front (probably a servo having a fit) and the ESP (traction control) light was flickering on and off. The noise stopped after a few seconds of driving, but then a few minutes later I got an ESP Failure warning on the cabin display. I turned the ignition off and on again and the ESP has been fine since, and tests on a gravel road indicates it's kicking in when it should.

 

tl;dr: The suspension components do indeed affect the braking characteristics, as do scored discs or misaligned hubs.

 

* Not easy to remove as the threads were corroded. I had to remove the hub assembly, cut two flats into the balljoint flange and clamp that in a big bench vice. Also requires a special balljoint socket for refitting, and a massive torque wrench for the balljoint and driveshaft nut.

** Consequently I have spare control arm bushes if anyone wants them.